The Rangers & Celtic thread.

[ftlr]

[mossbanker tim]

I cannot believe the lack of credit Sevco F.C. got for beating a team a league higher than them. Now they have got Falkirk and if you analyse things objectively then we should take interest in this new club and give them a fair crack of the whip.

Falkirk FC
Challenge cup winners: 1993, 1997, 2004 & 2012

Scottish first tier league winners: 1907–08 & 1909–10

Scottish Cup winners: 1913, 1957

Record attendance: 23,100 v Celtic

Sevco F.C. (Formally Rangers):
Honours: Nothing!!!!
Record attendance: 4,123 v Brechin City

[tirvaluk]

Record attendance has to be 0, they haven't played a home game yet.

[mossbanker tim]

Why did Sevco F.C. (Formally known as Rangers) not sign Robin Van Persie?

I refer to the club formally known as Rangers as Sevco F.C. as Rangers are DEAD, No more, liquidated....

You would ask yourself how Sevco FC could afford to buy Robin Van Persie from Arsenal and pay his wages for the next four years. The answer is simple, do what they (Oldco Rangers) have been doing for years, just don’t pay the selling club, and when it comes to wages, pay them through some dodgy tax avoiding scheme.

For proof of that you could ask a number of club chairmen, anyone from Rapid Vienna, St Etienne, Chelsea, Palermo, Manchester city, they even owe Arsenal for the services of one of their players on loan.

I think the SFA and SPL have given them more than enough chances to get their big house in order, it really is time now for some serious action, or can Charles Green act with impunity within Scottish Football.

Some of the comments from this guy in the last few weeks have been very inflammatory, the comments are obviously meant to get his clubs supporters on his side, and to entice them to buy season tickets for Division 3..

Green is, as you say, continuing this line of comments purely for the purpose of playing up to the Sevco hoardes, getting them on his side and purchasing their new season tickets. Expecting it doesn't excuse it however. The sad fact is the longer Green, McCoist and the fans claim bias and bigotry against their old club (can you believe this!) and new club, the more the mainstream media will continue to pander to their wishes and refer to both clubs as one and the same.

You are somewhat correct, the original Rangers received a punishment of precisely 10 points deducted. But this was only an application of the rules because they filed for administration, same as happened to Gretna in 2008, rather than a punishment specific to them.

Despite arguing the following points, the Rangers & Sevco fans are wrong:

1 - Rangers were not banned from Europe - they just did not submit audited accounts in time to be granted a licence.

2 - Rangers were not relegated from the SPL. They haven't been liquidated as a company/club yet but have had to transfer their share in the SPL to Dundee.

3 - They did receive a punishment specific to them of £160,000 fine and a 12-month registration embargo. Rangers contested these in the civil courts (which itself is against UEFA rules) before the punishment being upheld by the appellate tribunal. The club ceased to exist before the punishments could be enforced. The new club accepted these same punishments as a sanction for entry to the SFA/SFL as a new club. NOT because they are the same club.

Sevco fans argue wrongly:

1 - They were relegated from the SPL. Wrong - you are a new club, you did not exist in the SPL to be relegated from it. This argument stands strong for the assertion that they were relegated to SFL3 - they were not a club in the existing structure and so couldn't have been "relegated" anywhere, rather they were granted membership and started from the bottom as a new club should.

2 - They have been banned from Europe for 3 years. Wrong - you are a new club, you have not the required three years audited accounts to gain a European licence.

McCoist, Green and co. know these things as much as everyone else.

Punishment was not truly given to Rangers for their misdeeds. In the case of the new club, the defensive mentality is understandable somewhat, but still ultimately wrong. The SFA are not their enemy, quite the opposite, they virtually cut through the rules to try and get the new club in Rangers' stead. Ignoring the pre-existing rules for clubs seeking entry to the professional leagues to have at least three years’ worth of accounts to prove their viability – something the new club does not have.
[/b][/u]

[mossbanker tim]

http://www.uefa.com/teamsandpl.....index.html

http://www.uefa.com/teamsandpl.....index.html

It was pointed out on a radio phone in that UEFA and FIFA are watching with interest the goings on with regards to Rangers and Sevco F.C. - FIFA consider liqidation to be the death of a club. If you check out the above links, the UEFA website considers the history of Rangers to have been concluded on May 13 2012. The governing bodies consider that the next title won at "Ibrox" will be their first under the name of "The Rangers Football Club, Sevco of Conco" - it depends on how you regard this new entity.

As I have stated on here before rather than the SFA being against Rangers, sorry Sevco F.C. - the truth is they are bending over backwards to accomodate them. As a new club they should not have been considered for entry to the Scottish Football League as they have not been a club for 3 years. Poor old Spartans overlooked again as the SFA do not apply their own rules.

[mossbanker tim]

I see Lance Armstrong may be stripped of seven tour wins and banned for life from cycling. If its good enough to take these very prestigious titles from a global sports icon, in fact one of the all time greats (pending drug allegations outcome)

The Daily Record claims that it will all be OK because Bradley Wiggins is going to buy Lance Armstrong and his history and become the most decorated cyclist ever.


A spokesman for Sevco F.C. stated "This is a disgrace, hasn't he been punished enough?"

[mossbanker tim]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/medi.....CMP=twt_gu

On this web blog a few Rangers fans stated that Phil Mac Giolla Bhain is a bit of a crank. Well I hope this puts this lies spun from bitter Rangers fans to bed.

He is a journalist, author, blogger and writer. He is an active member of the National Union of Journalists and the Irish representative on the NUJ‘s New Media Industrial Council. He also is the editor of the NUJ’s house magazine the Irish Journalist. An established print journalist for many years Phil’s online writing has gained him a vast following as well as recognition by the national press and in the Tartan Blog Awards in 2010 and 2011. Phil lives and works in Ireland.

Over the last few years, he has spent much, but by no means all, of his time writing about the decline and fall of Rangers. He has broken some of the stories to the public gaze, even where afterwards more Establishment journalists claimed to have known all along, but could not print because “the lawyers would not let them”.

He, along with the Orwell Prize wining blogger, RTC of RangersTaxCase.com, have helped to bring the story out of the dark and into the light. Along the way there have been various other writers, bloggers and rumourmongers who have got things spot on, and many more who have been hopelessly wrong. Now, with the trail having been blazed by RTC and Phil, Mark Daly of the BBC and Alex Thomson of Channel 4, amongst others, have put the issues on national television.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/medi.....otlandsaid this:-

“The story stretches back four years. Mac Giolla Bhain was the first journalist, and, for much of the time, the only journalist, to chart the financial dramas that led to the demise of Rangers football club.

The fact that he worked outside the Scottish media establishment to tell the twists and turns of the tale in a blog is hugely relevant. Indeed, a crucial part of the story involves the initial failure of Scotland’s journalists to investigate the internal shenanigans at Rangers.

For his trouble, Mac Giolla Bhain suffered from persistent verbal threats from people calling themselves Rangers fans.”

There is no doubt now that the story is huge and has, since the descent into administration in February, has been covered in detail, in Scotland, England and around the world too.

[mossbanker tim]

This guy Charles Green seems to think that his consortium (Sevco F.C.) “bought” titles won by Rangers Football Club (1872).
This, I have to admit, is a new one on me.
If Charlie is correct then perhaps, Mr Novak Djokovic, who is a very wealthy tennis player, will put in a bid in for Andy Murray’s US open title.
After all, it would appear that sporting titles can be bought.

Roger Mitchell in the Herald nails it today with unarguable logic, but he also tries to acquaint Mr Green with the long standing rapprochement between the sports hacks and anyone in a position of power at Ibrox.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/.....k.18857922

in this socially valuable work by people in charge at Edmiston Drive.
The bottom line is if Charlie doesn’t bring attention to the fact that Sevco are a new club with no titles then the hacks won’t mention it either and everyone can pretend that Rangers didn’t die.

Rangers (1872-2012) had 140 years of history and a lot of it wasn’t that happy. The club operated discriminatory employment practices that effectively wrote permission slips for racists and bigots. Thus authorised the Ibrox klan went on the rampage with depressing regularity.
Perhaps if Sevco admitted that they had no history at all then we would all be happier.

[Biglad]

Yawn!

[upnorth76]

i just wish celtic, rangers & all other fans would let it just die and move on - what has happened has happened, no point in looking back - but its clear to see some fans still can't let it go.... nor the SPL/SFA

as to celtic suing for lost revenue on champions league - celtic didn't lose out because of EBTs, the simply lost qualification to the Champions League as they did not win the league that specific year or won at the qualifying rounds.. Celtic are a big club & could of easily spent good money to bring good players in, which they did.. So the matter of the fact is celtic just didn't have the players to win the games to qualify for champions league... EBT is a tax case not a footballing case..

Its the same for Aberdeen - Stuart Milne has millions, probably more in his bank than the celtic owner(s) but he doesn't spend his money not because he doesn't want to - Aberdeen simply don't have the fan base anymore to justify him spending millions of pounds on players to come and play in a half empty stadium... last game attendance 9,288 (so much for the Save Our Saturday) campaign....

[CHUCK NORR1S]

Chocolate Cake

This is a proper chocolate cake recipe, for those times when a Victoria sponge recipe with added cocoa powder just wont do! The pan of water in the oven gives a moist cake and prevents the crust drying out.
---------------------
Preparation Time

15 minutes
---------------------
Baking Time

30 minutes
---------------------
Portions

Serves 6-8
---------------------

Ingredients


175 grams

Dark Chocolate broken into squares

200 grams - Butter unsalted
200 grams - Self Raising Flour (Allinson Nature Friendly)
300 grams - Light Muscovado Sugar (Billington's)
30 grams - Cocoa Powder
1 tsp - Baking Powder
4 Free Range Eggs (Happy Eggs) beaten
_________________
Chuck Norris built Rome in a day

[DaBogMonster]

Typical Celtic fan, utterly obsessed with Rangers.

[kirsty]

[quote="upnorth76"]i just wish celtic, rangers & all other fans would let it just die and move on - what has happened has happened, no point in looking back - but its clear to see some fans still can't let it go.... nor the SPL/SFA

as to celtic suing for lost revenue on champions league - celtic didn't lose out because of EBTs, the simply lost qualification to the Champions League as they did not win the league that specific year or won at the qualifying rounds.. Celtic are a big club & could of easily spent good money to bring good players in, which they did.. So the matter of the fact is celtic just didn't have the players to win the games to qualify for champions league... EBT is a tax case not a footballing case..





Rangers "won" the leagues using EBTs to pay players they could not otherwise afford i.e. getting the British tax payer to finance titles. It is called financial doping or cheating. Celtic worked on the basis of being prudent and paying their tax bill.

Rules are now being applied and you Rangers fans who bang on about 54 title and counting do not like rules being applied to their club.

[ftlr]

celtic just didn't have the players to win the games to qualify for champions league... EBT is a tax case not a footballing case..
The financial doping carried out by David Murrays team goes beyond football,debts taken on by first the Bank of Scotland and then LloydsTSB who themselves were then taken on by you and me.
Its the same for Aberdeen - Stuart Milne has millions, probably more in his bank than the celtic owner(s)
On what planet is Stewart Milne worth more money than Dermot Desmond?

[ftlr]

[mossbanker tim]

13 November.......tick tock - tick tock

[mossbanker tim]

I would like to congratulate Sevco who play football at Ibrox on 140 days unbroken history. Good luck on your attempts on winning your first trophy i.e. the Scottish 3rd division title.

[CHUCK NORR1S]

PASSION CAKE

150.0ml sunflower oil , plus a little extra for the tin

300.0g self-raising flour

1.0 tsp ground cinnamon

1.0 tsp baking powder

300.0g caster sugar

50.0g desiccated coconut

2 eggs , plus 2 egg whites, whole eggs beaten

2 over-ripe bananas , mashed

140.0g carrots , grated

432.0g can crushed pineapples in juice, drained in a sieve, reserving the

juice (or briefly whizz a can of pineapple chunks, then sieve)

100.0ml milk

FOR THE DRIZZLE & ICING4 ripe passion fruits , halved

25.0g caster sugar

200.0g tub soft cheese

100.0g softened butter

85.0g icing sugar

1.0 tsp vanilla extract

Heat oven to 180C/160C fan/gas 4. Oil and line the bases of 3 x 20cm sandwich tins with baking parchment.
Mix the flour, cinnamon, baking powder, half the sugar and the coconut in a large mixing bowl.
In another bowl mix the beaten whole eggs, mashed bananas, grated carrot, drained crushed pineapple, milk and oil.
Beat the egg whites until stiff, then add the remaining sugar and beat until stiff and shiny again.
Stir the wet mixture into the dry until smooth and lump-free, then using a large metal spoon or spatula, fold in the egg white mixture.
Divide evenly between the tins and bake for 25 mins until risen and a skewer comes out clean.
You might need to swap the position of the tins after 20 mins.
For the drizzle, scoop out the passion fruit pulp into a small pan. Add the pineapple juice and caster sugar and heat until bubbling, then bubble until syrupy. For the icing, beat the cheese and butter until lump-free, then beat in icing sugar and vanilla.
Chill until ready to assemble.
Poke the cakes all over with a skewer, drizzle over most of the passion syrup, then cool. Once cool, spread the icing over two of the sponges. Sandwich together and top with the third, un-iced, sponge. Drizzle over the remaining syrup.
PER SERVING611 kcalories, protein 7.0g, carbohydrate 80.0g, fat 32.0 g, saturated fat 13.0g, fibre 3.0g, sugar 56.0g, salt 0.83 g
_________________
Chuck Norris built Rome in a day

[Frankie]

[mossbanker tim]

It should also be pointed out that the decision announced does not totally clear the former Rangers. It rules that tax was due on some, but not all, of the payments made. So the tax liability will be much reduced, but will not be zero. Unfortunately no figures are included so the exact amount that is due is unknown.

So in effect the former football club now has debts that are much lower than we had thought. But it still owes far more that it will ever be able to pay and so the liquidation process that is being overseen by BDO will continue. There are no degrees of dead – this decision doesn’t make the club slightly less dead.

The other big issue relates to Lord Nimmo Smith’s delayed inquiry on behalf of the Scottish Premier League into the contractual position of players of the former club. In short, that inquiry will look at whether payments were made to players outwith the contracts lodged with the footballing authorities.

Now far from clearing the former club, the FTT ruling issued actually makes a guilty verdict more likely.

It is now confirmed that so called side letters do exist. These are letters from the Trust acting on behalf of the club to individual employees, players and managers included, confirming that they will not need to pay back the loans made to them.

It is important to remember that the tax issue and the footballing issue are separate, Even if they payments made were legal under tax law they could still fall foul of football’s regulations. A successful tax appeal does not make the Nimmo Smoth inquiry go away.

And what about those who received the loans? Well, they could find a letter from liquidators BDO in the post sometime soon asking for repayment. But, they will argue, we have letters stating that we will never have to pay the loan back. And so there may be a few more court cases to come as that legal knot is untangled.

[muckletrow]

[Frankie]

^^^ Ever had somebody do a homer for you for cash ?

[muckletrow]

[Frankie]

^^

What I'm saying is you'd be hard pressed to find somebody who has not avoided paying tax at some time.

You are quite right to point out it is morally wrong, and if all the tax which big companies avoid paying was paid, the country would be in a much healthier position.

It's the rules that need to be changed to stop it.

[muckletrow]

There's a major difference between people paying cash in hand to mate to fix a door compared to people like David Murray , Barry Ferguson etc, stashing away millions tax free, whilst ordinary people like myself trying to pay my mortgage and raise a family on £24k are in danger of losing their jobs.

I praised David Murray for what he did for Rangers before all this rubbish was published. What a fool I was!!


Tax Justice Network show that £25 billion is lost annually in tax avoidance and a further £70 billion in tax evasion by large companies and wealthy individuals. An additional £26 billion is going uncollected. Uk Uncut estimates the total annual tax gap at over £120 billion (more than three-quarters of the annual deficit!). Leaked Treasury documents in 2006 estimated the tax gap at between £97 and £150 billion.

Uk Uncut argued that employing more staff at HM Revenue & Customs would enable more tax to be collected, more investigations to take place and evasion reduced. Compliance officers in HMRC bring in over £658,000 in revenue per employee. Sadly this is just a pipe dream. Employ good lawyers who will pick loopholes in the system so players earning more per week than the national average can pay no tax.

Starbucks, Google, Amazon cheating the system (legally I’m afraid) were recently described as being morally bankrupt and Jimmy Carr who operated a similar scheme to Rangers to protect his £1,000,000 plus salary at least had the decency to stop his actions and apologise for his tax avoidance. The Channel 4 standup is reported to have used a legal tax-avoidance scheme that enables members to pay income tax rates as low as 1%. Do Rangers and their followers have any conscience on this matter? No – they claim victory over us the tax payer, even though they were found guilty on some cases.