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About a year ago on the Brexit thread I invited you, and anyone else who cared to, to identify one single thing that would be better after BREXIT.  Back then I predicted that the answer would be silen

It's a sad state when opinions are clung to despite requiring careful consideration. They're often held by people considering themselves free thinkers and not being taken in by any lovey-dovey leftly-

Could you, would you have answered, had someone asked you in 1972 what joining the EEC could mean for Shetland's crofters?   .....and if you had answered, how accurate do you believe your answer from

To continue:  I was just making the point that subsidies have been around for a long time. As for the comment about subsidies to better off countries, well I was just making a point that these countries, paying much lower wages than we do can easily undercut prices.

 

All this endless guff about EU subsidies is a bit irritating. All these huge signs you see every here and there, "Built with EU grants."  EU grant assisted."  "EU funded." that kind of thing!

 

This brainwashes the population over time into believing that without the EU we would never have got anything built, anything achieved.

 

I'm old enough but I dont remember huge signs pre EU all over the country boasting about this or that being built. There were no huge signs on the M1 boasting: "Built by HM government." 

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To continue:  I was just making the point that subsidies have been around for a long time. As for the comment about subsidies to better off countries, well I was just making a point that these countries, paying much lower wages than we do can easily undercut prices.

 

All this endless guff about EU subsidies is a bit irritating. All these huge signs you see every here and there, "Built with EU grants."  EU grant assisted."  "EU funded." that kind of thing!

 

This brainwashes the population over time into believing that without the EU we would never have got anything built, anything achieved.

 

I'm old enough but I dont remember huge signs pre EU all over the country boasting about this or that being built. There were no huge signs on the M1 boasting: "Built by HM government." 

 

Are you glad Shetland crofters are going to lose the EU subsidy - given that you think that it is 'guff',  given that EU subsidies irritate you and given that you have no idea if it is going to be replaced with anything or not?

 

Do you think there is a future for sheep crofting in Shetland without the EU subsidy if it is not replaced with anything?

 

What do you think Shetland crofters should do if their businesses become non viable after the EU subsidy ends ?

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On a brighter note for the future;

There are over 800 local wool producers still operating and 1 lerwick business buys over 80% of the Shetland wool clip.  That is a fairly good basis for some kind of 'revival'.

That is because the 800 odd wool producers all rely on EU subsidy to remain viable. Once that is lost in a year or so from now there will be very few, if any, left.

Good luck with your 'revival'.

 

In the main, wool is just a by product of the food industry so it will still be there but, it is used for far more than just 'woolly jumpers'.

Insulation, fillings, other clothing, etc. These are just some of it's uses that come to mind.

 

I believe that Henry VIII built a navy on the back of it.!

 

In a wider context, are you trying to say that there will be no sheep farmers left in the UK once we withdraw from the EU or that wool will just be ploughed into the ground (if it's gathered at all) ?

 

I would accept that a lot of local crofters (as elsewhere) may be (?) 'subsidy junkies' but, I would question whether the UK Government would be allowed to just abandon them.  The agricultural industry in general holds a lot of 'clout' and we ALL need to eat.  

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You're being ridiculous here, of course I don't want crofters to be worse off. But as I said I have no idea what subsidy will be made available and neither do you. I was making the point that subsidies were here for sheep farmers long before the EU.

 

I would ask in return, are you happy with the effect that EU fishing policy had on fishing communities all over the UK? Communities destroyed! Local boats driven off traditional Shetland fishing grounds. Do you think they don't matter?

 

The UK farmers and crofters survived before the EU and I'm sure they will survive after, and perhaps better. I worked as a young guy for a hill sheep farmer in Wales in the 60s.  He told me some years ago that it had all changed since I was there. He could no longer afford to employ people as he used to. This suggests the EU hadn't provided massive financial benefits to him.

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On a brighter note for the future;

There are over 800 local wool producers still operating and 1 lerwick business buys over 80% of the Shetland wool clip.  That is a fairly good basis for some kind of 'revival'.

That is because the 800 odd wool producers all rely on EU subsidy to remain viable. Once that is lost in a year or so from now there will be very few, if any, left.

Good luck with your 'revival'.

 

No they don't, its a simple as that. Removal of all subsidy would obviously reduce profitability, but the industry would still be viable. Anybody who is 'relying' on subsidies to keep their agricultural business viable either isn't much of a businessperson or chooses to pursue high risk business strategies, with the pitfalls that accompanies it.

 

Besides, nobody knows as yet what exactly the market will settle down to post Brexit once the artificial import/export market created by EU legislation is removed, or what replacement subsidies the UK may or may not introduce to replace lost EU ones.

 

Wool is a secondary product, the main market for that agricultural sector is meat. There's 66 Million odd bodies in the UK, all need to eat, and with there being every possibility that post Brexit meat imports from the EU to the UK will be more expensive which can only help the hoe produced product in the home market.

 

We won't be losing much by leaving, the EU were never keen on our meat from that sector, its not that long ago the French were hijacking truck loads of the stuff and performing arson attacks on it, and Brussels stood by in silence while some Eastern European banana republic undercut us in the Italian market. I thought the EU was supposed to be 'a level playing field' for all members....... Its never worked out that way for UK agricultural exports to other members

 

Besides, if we're going to get in to 'crofter subsidy junkie' bashing, windfarms are subsidy recipients, and arguably are no more viable in Shetland without that subsidy than sheep farming is without its subsidy, yet nobody is knocking that scenario. Very strange.

 

Any payments crofters etc are getting for VE etc are only possible due to windfarm subsidies, and that's apparently 'okay', yet paying the same people from the taxation of the same people to produce meat and wool on the same land instead of theoretically producing electricity isn't okay.

 

A plate o' mutton in your belly an an ooin ganzie on your back will keep you warm and comfortable, electric that is only on when the wind blows at the right time at the right strength does nothing to fill your belly and only sometimes will keep you warm..........

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The UK coal industry was heavily subsidized the Australian coal industry was not subsidized to this extent,

Which one adapted and which one died when the plug was pulled?

Some EU countries do not have the same animal cruelty regulations this UK farmers cannot use some cost cutting measures yet must complete with those who do.

For example a farmers may not use a gestation crate to save money on pregnant pigs as this is partialy a measure intended to increase the yeild of piglets but we cannot restrict or impose tariffs on those that do as they have equal access to the market.

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Are you glad Shetland crofters are going to lose the EU subsidy - given that you think that it is 'guff',  given that EU subsidies irritate you and given that you have no idea if it is going to be replaced with anything or not?

 

Do you think there is a future for sheep crofting in Shetland without the EU subsidy if it is not replaced with anything?

 

What do you think Shetland crofters should do if their businesses become non viable after the EU subsidy ends ?

 

 

The U.K is a net contributor to the E.U budget. More will be paid to the E.U than will ever be paid back. Just who is the winner there?

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If losing the EU subsidy wasn't enough there's also the double whammy of cheap food imports.

If you're wondering what the UK government is going to do to protect the agricultural sector from cheap, sub-standard food imports flooding in under post-Brexit international trade deals...

Guess what???

They're actively encouraging it.

The NFU is absolutely fuming!!!

This from The Scottish Farmer, a publication that's usually Tory to the bone

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^ Neither the NFU or The Scottish Farmer are above sensationalism and scaremongering. They don't speak for or represent much else unless the heavily industrialised behemoth enterprises of the central belt and the fringes up the east coast, who of course are going to whinge and bitch and whine whethe rits justified or not. Its called PR/political tactics.

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You're being ridiculous here, of course I don't want crofters to be worse off. But as I said I have no idea what subsidy will be made available and neither do you. I was making the point that subsidies were here for sheep farmers long before the EU.

No, i'm not being ridiculous, I'm asking you some very simple questions which you are avoiding answering. Here's another one, given that you don't want crofters to be worse of, do you acknowledge that the EU subsidy assistance they have long enjoyed has been a good thing and do you think it is a bad thing that they will be losing it? I don't know if the subsidy is going to be replaced by anything that is right, that is why I am worried about the outcomes for Shetland crofters who depend on it to remain viable. I don't take the view that they are all 'subsidy junkies' or 'not much of a businessperson', and the implied assertion that they therefore deserve what is coming to them, as some other posters do. For many crofters I suspect the EU subsidy is a vital part of their revenue stream.

 

I would ask in return, are you happy with the effect that EU fishing policy had on fishing communities all over the UK? Communities destroyed! Local boats driven off traditional Shetland fishing grounds. Do you think they don't matter?

No I am not happy about that and I think those communities matter very much. Another two questions for you. What are the rules which are going to apply to the British fishing industry next year? How are those rules going to improve the circumstances in the fishing communities you are quite rightfully so concerned about?

 

The UK farmers and crofters survived before the EU and I'm sure they will survive after, and perhaps better. I worked as a young guy for a hill sheep farmer in Wales in the 60s.  He told me some years ago that it had all changed since I was there. He could no longer afford to employ people as he used to. This suggests the EU hadn't provided massive financial benefits to him.

I'm afraid the questions just keep coming, What is it, specifically, that makes you feel sure that UK farmers and crofters will perhaps be better off once they lose the EU subsidy and have tariffs for access to EU markets imposed on them? The EU have been making available a handsome subsidy to assist your friend with his sheep farming activity in Europe. Do you think he is going to be better or worse off with the loss of that subsidy, and in addition to that do you think paying up to 60% tariff to send his product to the European market will be something that helps or hinders the viability of his farming business .

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In a wider context, are you trying to say that there will be no sheep farmers left in the UK once we withdraw from the EU or that wool will just be ploughed into the ground (if it's gathered at all) ?

 

No I am saying that the EU subsidy is an essential part of the revenue stream for many crofters in Shetland and without it many, if not most, will no longer find sheep crofting to be a viable enterprise. Do you think it's loss to Shetland's crofters is a good thing or a bad thing?  I can mind a time when wool was dumped over the banks or 'not gathered at all', it's not too difficult to imagine a similar situation occurring again. 

 

I would accept that a lot of local crofters (as elsewhere) may be (?) 'subsidy junkies' but, I would question whether the UK Government would be allowed to just abandon them.  The agricultural industry in general holds a lot of 'clout' and we ALL need to eat.

Who do you think is going to prohibit the UK government from abandoning Shetland's crofters?

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No they don't, its a simple as that. Removal of all subsidy would obviously reduce profitability, but the industry would still be viable. Anybody who is 'relying' on subsidies to keep their agricultural business viable either isn't much of a businessperson or chooses to pursue high risk business strategies, with the pitfalls that accompanies it.

 

Besides, nobody knows as yet what exactly the market will settle down to post Brexit once the artificial import/export market created by EU legislation is removed, or what replacement subsidies the UK may or may not introduce to replace lost EU ones.

 

Wool is a secondary product, the main market for that agricultural sector is meat. There's 66 Million odd bodies in the UK, all need to eat, and with there being every possibility that post Brexit meat imports from the EU to the UK will be more expensive which can only help the hoe produced product in the home market.

 

We won't be losing much by leaving, the EU were never keen on our meat from that sector, its not that long ago the French were hijacking truck loads of the stuff and performing arson attacks on it, and Brussels stood by in silence while some Eastern European banana republic undercut us in the Italian market. I thought the EU was supposed to be 'a level playing field' for all members....... Its never worked out that way for UK agricultural exports to other members

 

Besides, if we're going to get in to 'crofter subsidy junkie' bashing, windfarms are subsidy recipients, and arguably are no more viable in Shetland without that subsidy than sheep farming is without its subsidy, yet nobody is knocking that scenario. Very strange.

 

Any payments crofters etc are getting for VE etc are only possible due to windfarm subsidies, and that's apparently 'okay', yet paying the same people from the taxation of the same people to produce meat and wool on the same land instead of theoretically producing electricity isn't okay.

 

A plate o' mutton in your belly an an ooin ganzie on your back will keep you warm and comfortable, electric that is only on when the wind blows at the right time at the right strength does nothing to fill your belly and only sometimes will keep you warm..........

 

Eh? What are you on about?

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Incidentally, all these people, manic lefties, remoaners and others determined to stay in the EU at all costs, need to look carefully at their arguments regarding animal welfare.

It has been hurled around so often that post Brexit we will importing meat from countries which do not stick to the strict EU conditions on animal welfare. There are cries that we will accept this to make deals elsewhere.

But hold on here, legislation on pig farming has actually been particularly slow throughout the years of EU control.

EU legislation banning the use of pig stalls which is intended to increase profits, was supposed to be introduced gradually over a number of years since 2013.

 

This legislation is still not in effect.

 

In fact the only countries with a complete ban on pig stalls in 2020 are the following: Norway, Sweden, and the UK.

 

We import pork from the EU, we should not be doing this until there is a level playing field

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Incidentally, all these people, manic lefties, remoaners and others determined to stay in the EU at all costs, need to look carefully at their arguments regarding animal welfare.

 

And the opposit of a manic lefty, the complete and utter opposite is..........................................a Tory voter. Albeit, it may well not be a tory but I beleive that it will leach all the way from Westminster.

 

Feel proud.

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