Covid 19 / Coronavirus

[Roachmill]

OK. That must be a comforting view point right now. But "So what" poses the quandary of why you asked the question in the first place. No point asking a question if you respond to an answer like that.

Edited April 5, 2020 by Roachmill

[CSmith]

Hm? What question is that? I don't really have any questions, I see the whole 'life' thing quite rational and realistically. I don't go in for all the drama. Call me cold hearted, but I am just a realist. 

[Muckle Oxters]

From whaur I see it, if we can prevent folk fae dying dat want tae live langer den we should do wir best tae do whit we can fur dem. I hae plenty friends and relatives in dir 80s and 90s and folk we serious health conditions dat are still spangin wee life, wha ir loved and lead full lives. Dey ir at serious risk and proposin we write dem aff tae let a virus rip trow dem shows a lack o humanity.

[Roachmill]

Hm? What question is that?

"What's the big deal". It's not hard to find evidence from medical folks and boffins alike to explain that. Or don't.

[Sacre Bleu]

To suggest we simply do nothing in the face of a pandemic and "let nature takes its course" is reckless. Viruses can mutate rapidly, and spread exponentially, and evolve from seriously affecting weak and infirm hosts to otherwise healthy hosts as virulence increases. Taking swift and decisive action in an environment of incomplete data is challenging but necessary. Mistakes will be made, that is for sure, and many ethical questions will be raised along the way.

 

Personally, I find the argument that society should let the old and less healthy take the consequences of a relatively unknown virus, particularly a pandemic, is usually ill-considered both ethically and medically, and usually comes from a right of centre political, rather than an evidence based, perspective.

 

This is an interesting primer from the World Health Organisation (2016) - Guidance For Managing Ethical Issues In Infectious Disease Outbreaks - https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/handle/10665/250580/9789241549837-eng.pdf

[CSmith]

It isn't a big deal because in the end we will all die anyway. You can scream and fight and wail all you want but the end result will still be the same. It's the natural order of things. People live and people die. So what? Accept it for what it is. While people selfishly breed even more people they ultimately condemn them to a sticky end. Tough turd but there it is. (I realized that at a young age and opted out from repeating the misery.) It is an entirely self inflicted problem. We literally breed more human suffering. Don't want your kids to suffer? Then do them a favour and don't have them! 

 

 The ecosystem and nature simply has no use for unrealistic and sentimental human ideas like 'lack of humanity' or ethics. If nothing else, humanity is a plaque on this planet. And of course the bottom line is that Doctors are already in the situation where they have to make decisions about which patient has the better chances and gets the ventilator. That's what happens when there are limited resources and too much demand. Better get used to it because with continued population growth there'll be even more of a squeeze.... (am I glad I never bred and condemned another human to this!) 

 

In the end nature will have the last laugh. It is already showing us how quickly it can recover and heal without humans continually polluting and destroying. We are part of a much bigger system and all we care about is our own comforts. There are things on this planet far more important than humans. We are only a tiny part of it but act as if we literally own the place. This isn't just about us! Maybe this virus is only the beginning and there'll be many more and it's finally payback time. The domino effect of the virus will have massive consequences for the human race but will hopefully turn out to be beneficial for the environment. Humans have the unfortunate tendency to take themselves far too seriously and think they are more important than other life forms. This virus is teaching you the opposite.

[Sacre Bleu]

Where this type of reductionist anti-natalist thinking falls down is that every species has evolved through an inherent drive to live and reproduce, regardless of sentimentality or ethics.

 

Other species may well be more prosperous in the absence of the human race, but advocating for this outcome via failure to prevent the mass suffering of others (in this case dying from a painful and distressing virus) is a philosophically challenging position to adopt.

[Muckle Oxters]

I winder if aa da folk who seem to be OK we folk dying fae da coronavirus hiv iver hed medical help or taken medicines when dey are ill? Surely if dey canna fight aff an illness on dir own den dey wid joost accept dat dir number is up and happily accept dyin. Dat's joost nature takin it's course, after aa.

[Ghostrider]

I winder if aa da folk who seem to be OK we folk dying fae da coronavirus hiv iver hed medical help or taken medicines when dey are ill? Surely if dey canna fight aff an illness on dir own den dey wid joost accept dat dir number is up and happily accept dyin. Dat's joost nature takin it's course, after aa.

Don't go there, or I'll start on a 28 year story that's a long way south of pretty, that begins with 'flu like symptoms' and crossing paths with the NHS against my will and better judgement.

[Suffererof1crankymofo]

@ Muckle Oxters

Not all illnesses are curable.  Not all illnesses cause death.  Some treatments and drugs can, however, lead to death; few medicines are without side effects and the permissible number for the 'collateral damage/deaths' is higher than what you might think.  People have also died during drug trials.

I have an incurable disease.  The official medical advice is to stay on the medication during this outbreak, it's low grade chemo and no, it's not for cancer.  I have an auto immune disease.  I spoke with my consultant.  I'm now off the medication.  I tend not to get ill with coughs, colds, viruses, etc., when I'm off the medication; hell, I went over 10 years without even a cold.  On the medication, different story.  Even though I'm off the medication, it'll take months for it to work out of my system.

 

My consultant agreed that there are a few (not everybody) who develops complications with COVID-19 whereby their immune systems turn on themselves and attacks all healthy cells, not just the virus.  But nobody knows with what I have if my system will continue to attack the same areas it attacks now or if I'll be one of the few developing complications.  Catch 22.  So, between my consultant and I, we've decided the best approach is to come off the medication and give my immune system the chance to go back to how it is off the medication.  Speaking to other people with the condition, I know that they have done the same after speaking with their consultants; so we're all basically going agains the standard NHS guidelines on this.  Well, they don't exactly want a large number of people suddenly having their prescriptions changed, do they, swapping from one sort of medication to another because they couldn't cope with the workload.

So yeah, I'm increased risk.  I'm not a pensioner.  I'd rather none of us died prematurely but I sure as hell wouldn't want a prolonged death either but as pointed out earlier in this thread, assisted dying isn't permissible in the UK.  It's the non-acceptance of death being part of life that gets me, with many people seemingly being under the illusion that 'we'll all live forever'.

[Watter]

It isn't a big deal because in the end we will all die anyway. You can scream and fight and wail all you want but the end result will still be the same. It's the natural order of things. People live and people die. So what? Accept it for what it is. While people selfishly breed even more people they ultimately condemn them to a sticky end. Tough turd but there it is. (I realized that at a young age and opted out from repeating the misery.) It is an entirely self inflicted problem. We literally breed more human suffering. Don't want your kids to suffer? Then do them a favour and don't have them! 

 

 The ecosystem and nature simply has no use for unrealistic and sentimental human ideas like 'lack of humanity' or ethics. If nothing else, humanity is a plaque on this planet. And of course the bottom line is that Doctors are already in the situation where they have to make decisions about which patient has the better chances and gets the ventilator. That's what happens when there are limited resources and too much demand. Better get used to it because with continued population growth there'll be even more of a squeeze.... (am I glad I never bred and condemned another human to this!) 

 

In the end nature will have the last laugh. It is already showing us how quickly it can recover and heal without humans continually polluting and destroying. We are part of a much bigger system and all we care about is our own comforts. There are things on this planet far more important than humans. We are only a tiny part of it but act as if we literally own the place. This isn't just about us! Maybe this virus is only the beginning and there'll be many more and it's finally payback time. The domino effect of the virus will have massive consequences for the human race but will hopefully turn out to be beneficial for the environment. Humans have the unfortunate tendency to take themselves far too seriously and think they are more important than other life forms. This virus is teaching you the opposite.

European birth rates have been in terminal decline for many years now without mass immigration the population of all European countries would be going down not up .

[Muckle Oxters]

I don’t think dirs many folk dat believe dey ir going to live forever! Particularly da folk dat ir most at risk fae Coronavirus and idder ailments. I’m had my ain health challenges and towt I might be a goner at ee point, but dat doesna mak my opinion more valid or feel I need to patronise folk online.

 

I’ve had many an interesting (and sometimes heartbrakin) yarn we folk who have been staring dir own demise in da face and I prefer to take a position o empathy and compassion and do what little I can to comfort dem. I certainly dunna feel da need to tell dem to toughen up because dey’re obviously going to die at some point onywye so it might as well be noo, and I see nae difference between haein a conversation we dem or dem readin whit I thought on da internet.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Muckle Oxters

[Windwalker]

It isn't a big deal because in the end we will all die anyway. You can scream and fight and wail all you want but the end result will still be the same. It's the natural order of things. People live and people die. So what? Accept it for what it is. While people selfishly breed even more people they ultimately condemn them to a sticky end. Tough turd but there it is. (I realized that at a young age and opted out from repeating the misery.) It is an entirely self inflicted problem. We literally breed more human suffering. Don't want your kids to suffer? Then do them a favour and don't have them! 

 

 The ecosystem and nature simply has no use for unrealistic and sentimental human ideas like 'lack of humanity' or ethics. If nothing else, humanity is a plaque on this planet. And of course the bottom line is that Doctors are already in the situation where they have to make decisions about which patient has the better chances and gets the ventilator. That's what happens when there are limited resources and too much demand. Better get used to it because with continued population growth there'll be even more of a squeeze.... (am I glad I never bred and condemned another human to this!) 

 

In the end nature will have the last laugh. It is already showing us how quickly it can recover and heal without humans continually polluting and destroying. We are part of a much bigger system and all we care about is our own comforts. There are things on this planet far more important than humans. We are only a tiny part of it but act as if we literally own the place. This isn't just about us! Maybe this virus is only the beginning and there'll be many more and it's finally payback time. The domino effect of the virus will have massive consequences for the human race but will hopefully turn out to be beneficial for the environment. Humans have the unfortunate tendency to take themselves far too seriously and think they are more important than other life forms. This virus is teaching you the opposite.

Whilst I agree that we all have the right to make comment and express our opinions, I find the above quotes inconsiderate,  ill judged and shows no concern to those who are currently concerned with a loved one who may be suffering with this virus.

 

if we take CSmiths views in board, surely we would not take medicines or treatments, receive any doctor or hospital care, not wear glasses or hearing aids or go to the dentist etc etc. Because according to CSmith it’s the natural order of things.

 

I wonder if CSmith, with his clear views of “it isn’t a big deal”, has never been to his doctor, dentist, optician etc. 

[Colin]

Seems that nothing, or no one, is safe from this one.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52177586

[CSmith]

If the virus induced stress and anxiety gets so bad for you that you can't handle a complete stranger's point of view on the internet than maybe it would be far better for your personal well being to switch off? Or alternatively hit the 'ignore' button? Sorry I can't hand you a tissue and pat your hand comfortingly.

 

Life comes to an end sooner or later and is full of suffering and misery for most of us. It's a cruel business, whether that is for humans or for animals. You will have known that all along so there's no point in stressing yourself out now. I just look at it from a detached, unemotional, dispassionate and philosophical angle, that's all.

 

*shrugs shoulders*