Covid 19 / Coronavirus

[Urabug]

 Thalidomide was supposed to be a wonder drug in the 1960's and many of us know the terrible consequences that caused,babies born severely disabled.

 

I want an inoculation against this terrible disease  but only when it has been proved safe and that could take a while. 

 

If the hierarchy in our society are willing to accept an injection before it is properly tested good luck to them.

[NullVoid]

 Thalidomide was supposed to be a wonder drug in the 1960's and many of us know the terrible consequences that caused,babies born severely disabled.

 

I want an inoculation against this terrible disease  but only when it has been proved safe and that could take a while. 

 

If the hierarchy in our society are willing to accept an injection before it is properly tested good luck to them.

They use that for Multiple sclerosis and Leprosy Today,

Testing such a thing as a "morning sickness" drug over a 9 month period on a pregnant woman before marketing this to them is an expense they didn't want or need to pay for.

Bluebloods with connections and political clout usually get things approved right away,

Don't think we will see a new Frances Oldham Kelsey today though as the companies she got the FDA to refuse the rubber stamp are much more powerful than they were back then.

 

Thalidomide was from a recently defeated subjugated country (West Germany) but they got the rubber stamp easily in plenty of other countries when unscrupulous drug companies took a brief glance at testimonials and saw no need to investigate further before the high profile US rejection of it.

 

What kind of oversights can you expect when you have 24hr nonstop Coronaplague news and livelihood killing restrictions on the public, people are going to go for the first thing they see advertised.

[Windwalker]

It’s unfortunate that Donald Trump doesn’t  engage brain before engaging mouth, some of the stuff this man comes out with would be so laughable if he wasn’t in the position he is. The problem is some people will be daft enough to try this. Now do I try the bleach or the  vaccine first ? 

[Windwalker]

Some good news - Well Captain Tom is number 1 in the charts during the week of his hundredths birthday, the money he had raised for the NHS with the walking is amazing. They don’t make them like this anymore. What a remarkable man.

 

Keep up the walking Captain Tom, the singing not so much   

[George.]

Yet again, Westminster shows us just how wide awake it really is.

 

Westminster Bridge crowds breach social distancing rules AGAIN

Edited April 24, 2020 by George.

[Watter]

There are many countries now forcing all people to wear masks when they go out . How come the UK is not doing this ? 

Edited April 24, 2020 by Watter

[Ghostrider]

It’s unfortunate that Donald Trump doesn’t  engage brain before engaging mouth, some of the stuff this man comes out with would be so laughable if he wasn’t in the position he is. The problem is some people will be daft enough to try this. Now do I try the bleach or the  vaccine first ? 

You have to bear in mind Trump uses the same gob in the Oval Office as he uses in the 19th hole of his golf clubs. Proving once again, one size does not fit all.

 

That said, many of those he presides over don't seem to need any help ingesting noxious substances. Tide Pods come to mind.....and that was (allegedly) mostly done by supporters of his opponents.

 

Maybe he's just trying to get his supporters to catch up......or the whole nation over there has a deep rooted kink for digesting domestic hygiene chemicals.

 

'Those crazy yanks......' was a phrase coined for a reason......

[George.]

Now do I try the bleach or the  vaccine first ? 

 

If it was asked by Boris or Donald I'd suggest the bleach, two sugars, and served in a pint pot.

[Colin]

There are many countries now forcing all people to wear masks when they go out . How come the UK is not doing this ? 

Nothing stopping us wearing masks if we want to.  Seen quite a few doing that already.

[Colin]

'Those crazy yanks......' was a phrase coined for a reason......

 

Wasn't there a song with a line that read;

"be kind to your 4 legged friend,  that Yank might be somebodies brother.."

[Capeesh]

...Had this country had the balls to go through with the herd immunity approach they briefly started out with...

Herd immunity is usually gained through vaccination, with a new virus that has no vaccine, no treatment and has the world's experts baffled, encouraging it to rip through 66 million people in a rapidly spreading Global pandemic and swamp our health system is probably the most deranged thing any sane country could suggest.(Source Epidemiologists, Virologists, Doctors and other experts from all over the world).

The boffins don't even know how long immunity after infection lasts for. (Immunity after any infection can range from lifelong and complete to nearly nonexistent), the whole herd immunity (through infection) gamble was based on hypotheticals and we were going to be the guinea pigs.

The fact is the whole wheeze has been globally discredited yet still there's some who think the rest of the world was wrong and the UK was right, even after the UK government themselves realised they were heading for disaster.

After back peddling furiously, screeching to a halt, doing a U turn and telling us we'd got the wrong end of the stick, we're finally following the right path.

What's unforgivable for me is we had months more warning than China, Japan, Taiwan, South Korea etc to act and prepare and we didn't.

[Colin]

I would agree that the "herd immunity" approach is a very dangerous path to take when dealing with a new virus that nobody knows much about but, with no cure(?) in sight, that is what we are very likely going to end up with. 

 

As I suggested earlier, some will just brush off the virus, others will succumb to it and, the only way to deal with it (at present) is to try and limit the speed at which it spreads.  This will, at least, give us the chance to treat those unfortunate enough to have become infected and try and maybe buy enough time to find an effective treatment.

 

It might also be worth remembering that humans are the only species on the planet that vaccinate.  All the rest have to take their chance and hope that enough of the "herd" develop an immunity to the worst effects of any infection.

 

I'm no great advocate of "culling the herd", in fact I would rather avoid it but, nature does it all day, every day.

[Ghostrider]

 

...Had this country had the balls to go through with the herd immunity approach they briefly started out with...

Herd immunity is usually gained through vaccination, with a new virus that has no vaccine, no treatment and has the world's experts baffled, encouraging it to rip through 66 million people in a rapidly spreading Global pandemic and swamp our health system is probably the most deranged thing any sane country could suggest.(Source Epidemiologists, Virologists, Doctors and other experts from all over the world).

The boffins don't even know how long immunity after infection lasts for. (Immunity after any infection can range from lifelong and complete to nearly nonexistent), the whole herd immunity (through infection) gamble was based on hypotheticals and we were going to be the guinea pigs.

The fact is the whole wheeze has been globally discredited yet still there's some who think the rest of the world was wrong and the UK was right, even after the UK government themselves realised they were heading for disaster.

After back peddling furiously, screeching to a halt, doing a U turn and telling us we'd got the wrong end of the stick, we're finally following the right path.

What's unforgivable for me is we had months more warning than China, Japan, Taiwan, South Korea etc to act and prepare and we didn't.

 

Herd immunity has been established for a relatively small number of diseases through vaccination, most of which typically had a high probability of being fatal. Typhoid, Smallpox etc.

 

Herd immunity was established for Measles, Mumps and German Measles long before a vaccine came along.

 

There is no vaccine for a whole slew of variants of stomach and intestinal complaints, nor is there one for the common cold, and those for flu are largely ineffectual at best - 20% seems to be the figure most often bandied around.

 

Perceived 'expert' opinion can easily rubbish anything if you accept those offering that opinion it to be experts. Their opinion is only worth anything though if they can put forward an evidence based case to support their opinion, and preferably an alternative better plan of action - I'm still waiting to hear either.

 

While there may be 'experts' in the field of 'Corona' viruses in general, the plain fact is their are no experts in the field of this specific variant. Its too new, it has not been observed for long enough to reach any meaningful conclusions concerning it. Any 'expert' opinion offered can only exist based mostly on what is known from other Corona variants, which is ballpark guesswork, nothing more.

 

The current closedown is based on, as Rumsfeld infamously said, the 'known unknowns' and the 'unknown unknowns' giving a favourable outcome. If letting herd immunity was a gamble based on hypotheticals, and we're the guinea pigs. The closedown and everything else that's being forced upon us right now is equally so.

 

If this is "the right path" that we're on just now, care to explain the following:

 

What is the lockdown supposed to achieve, and what is the exit strategy? Over four weeks in to it with a condition that has a typical 2-14 day incubation time, represents at least 2 and possibly as many as 14+ fresh downline transmissions of infection after the closedown commenced. Were it 'working' a steep decline in fresh downline infection would have been expected from day 14 onwards.

 

How do we get out of where we are without a vaccine without the virus starting back in where we left off on March 23rd? This closedown is unsustainable long term, all aspects of business affected by the closedown can only survive in limbo for so long and still be able to start up again, some longer than others, but none indefinitely. The country cannot avoid bankruptcy indefinitely with less taxes coming in, higher government expenditure and reduced exports.

 

There is no vaccine, and no sign of a vaccine anytime soon. Which is probably a good(ish) thing, as the more rushed one is, the more likely it'll either be quite ineffectual in general use, or worse, have some sort of unanticipated longer term negative impact. The virus continues to spread worldwide despite the measures (or lack of) taken by the nations effected, Even if the highly unlikely occurs and its eradicated in the UK within weeks from now, it won't be eradicated globally.

 

How do we stop it getting back in again and restarting the whole pantomime all over again. There is no test to determine whether someone hasn't had it. There is no test to determine if someone has had it and recovered. There is no test to check if any item or surface is or isn't contaminated with the infection. The only test they have, apparently, is one to determine whether or not someone is currently suffering from the infection, if even that. Some media reports claim the test doesn't even show its the Covid-19 variant, just that its a virus of the Corona family. Others go further and claim it doesn't even identify a Corona virus, rather it just measures whether or not a patients immune system has been activated to fight 'something', which could be nothing but a common cold......

 

So, tell me, whenever and for whatever reason we finally come out, or are forced out of this closedown. What is the magical plan that is going to stop the virus becoming re-established again in the UK and marching through the previously uninfected population as fast as it feels like?

 

So far the UK has lost 23,300 people whose death have been attributed (rightly or wrongly) to the virus. Say we lose 100,000 before this bout ends. If we allow the virus to return multiple times over the coming months and years, as is almost inevitable without a vaccine or other means to keep it out. Does it really matter if we end up losing 100,000 per fresh outbreak and any subsequent closedown it triggers , spread over over say 10 seperate outbreaks over the next 6 years, or if we'd just let herd immunity occur now and had lost 1 Million people in say 6 months.....Its still 1 Million people who are all equally dead in the end.

 

Short of sealing everybody in their houses and only letting anyone go outdoors if they are wearing full hazmat suits is the only way to eradicate it from the country without a vaccine or some other sort of 'cure', and to continue sealing and suits until zero infection exists globally. That's not feasible to do, both in practical and financial terms. Without any of it, common sense would tend to lead you to observe and learn from previous pandemics for which there was no vaccine - Like the Spanish Flu, where it was the mutated version that re-appeared the following autumn that proved the most deadly by far, and it was the nations who were heaviest hit by the infection in the first wave, which had been no more deadly than any other flu, who fared best in the end, as the immunity gained from the first wave greatly reduced the impact of the second wave.

 

Yes, there's no way of knowing what level of immunity, if any, the current version of this may create, and likewise there's no way of knowing if there will be a mutated second wave - but when we know nothing, why we would want to set things up to create the present day version of a perfect storm that's well documented in history, is beyond me.

Edited April 25, 2020 by Ghostrider

[NullVoid]

Officially my favorite headline!
If Sweden succeeds, lockdowns will all have been for nothing
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/04/25/sweden-succeeds-lockdownswill-have-nothing/

Click to search for "Sweden" on Google news

 

Sweden (No Lockdown)
Total
18,200 >
Hospitalised
17,000 < ?
Recovered
550 <
Deaths
2,200 >

 

For comparison here is a different place with less strict internal measures but much stricter measures on people coming into the country
Iceland (less strict measures)
14 day quarantine for those arriving from overseas

Total
1,800 >
Recovered
1670 <
Hospitalised
110 <
Deaths
9 <

 

[Colin]

@Ghostrider

I understand what you are saying and, in some ways, agree, but the consequences of having a million die and (possibly) another 50 million to ill to bury them in a six month period, doesn't bear thinking about.  Mass graves anyone ?

Edited April 25, 2020 by Colin