Scottish Independence Referendum 2021

[BigMouth]

Just noticed this on the David Davis Downside Dossier

Shellfish. The European Union has told the UK shellfish industry that thousands of tonnes of oyster, mussel, clam, cockle and scallop exports are banned from the bloc indefinitely. British fishers, who had been told by government to expect the ban to last until spring, are warning this will be a fatal blow to their businesses.

Perhaps this should be in the Brexit thread, but I think that this will be important to the local fisherfolk in an independence context.

[Rasmie]

In the event of Scottish Independence joining the Euro wouldn’t be all that bad. It will necessitate  growth in the Shipping business as we will probably end up importing and exporting directly from Scotland to the EU so a single currency would be advantageous. We will soon trade less with England as the red tape will be prohibitive.

[Capeesh]

19 hours ago, BigMouth said:

Just noticed this on the David Davis Downside Dossier

Shellfish. The European Union has told the UK shellfish industry that thousands of tonnes of oyster, mussel, clam, cockle and scallop exports are banned from the bloc indefinitely. British fishers, who had been told by government to expect the ban to last until spring, are warning this will be a fatal blow to their businesses.

Perhaps this should be in the Brexit thread, but I think that this will be important to the local fisherfolk in an independence context.

Really grim reading, the thing that irks me is all you hear about from opponents of independence is how much of a *basket-case economy Scotland has.* Every time I hear or read it I think to myself, that's not much of an advert for the Union. 307 years of Westminster control has, according to them, turned Scotland into a sad, poor little country living of handouts. If this is the case, why don't they train some chimps, put them in suits, give them the vast natural resources and highly educated/skilled people Scotland has and get them to do a better job.

Your link above is further proof of our gross mismanagement, a Tory party that Scotland has rejected for 65 years commit economic vandalism on a grand scale with a Brexit the vast majority in Scotland didn't want, bankrupting our businesses, inflicting more costs, putting people out of work  etc etc and they have the temerity to tell us we're too poor...

Cheeky so and so's!

*I think they've been cooking the books myself.

Edited February 2, 2021 by Capeesh

[Windwalker]

2 hours ago, Capeesh said:

If this is the case, why don't they train some chimps, put them in suits

They did and they called them the SNP

[Colin]

19 hours ago, Capeesh said:

Really grim reading, the thing that irks me is all you hear about from opponents of independence is how much of a *basket-case economy Scotland has.

Interesting to note that you do not seem to think that England, Wales, Isle of Man, Jersey, Guernsey and N.Ireland also have fisheries that have been affected by the shellfish ban..   A bit disingenous, IMHO, or is it just the usual anti Westminster SNP waffle ?

Personally, I would impose an immediate retaliation by banning all gill netting in OUR waters.....  If the EU want to play hardball, let's play it as well.

[Windwalker]

Perhaps we should also stop all foreign vessels fishing for these same shellfish, after all if our catch isn’t good enough to ship to the EU we shouldn’t allow them to catch them in our waters to take to the EU. 

[Capeesh]

44 minutes ago, Colin said:

Interesting to note that you do not seem to think that England, Wales, Isle of Man, Jersey, Guernsey and N.Ireland also have fisheries that have been affected by the shellfish ban..   A bit disingenous, IMHO, or is it just the usual anti Westminster SNP waffle ?

Personally, I would impose an immediate retaliation by banning all gill netting in OUR waters.....  If the EU want to play hardball, let's play it as well.

 

 

 

 

What? I'm fully aware there's a shellfish industry in other parts of the UK. Unless you're trying to imply I don't care about businesses struggling in England and Wales, I sympathise with everyone getting screwed  because they weren't told what happens when you become a third country outside the EU.

These companies were lied to, the companies themselves knew the ban existed, it's not a new 'get back at the UK ban' it's a ban that we enforced on third countries ourselves when we were EU members but they were expressly told by our hopeless government the ban would be lifted in April leading them to believe they had negotiated an exemption.

Read the link, there's a Shellfish company director on it explaining all this, he's mad at the government not the EU.

Spinning this to blame the EU for rules we were quite happy to enforce when we were members is a cop out. Shooting ourselves in the foot and blaming the EU for the pain has those responsible for this mess (our own government) rubbing their hands in glee, it's giving them a free pass.

This is just another example of the many consequences of a hard Brexit, the point as far as the thread title goes, is the vast majority of Scotland's voters didn't want any of this.

 

[JGHR]

On 29/01/2021 at 17:30, Windwalker said:

Your right that a majority of Scots voted to remain in the EU, but it was a U.K. wide vote, the majority voted out. Similar to the independence vote last a few years back, SNP supporters seem to have an issue with democracy, unless of course it goes their way.

for the record, I voted to remain in the EU, but fully accept democracy. Mind you the way they treated and continue to treat the U.K. now, has changed my mind. I’m glad we’re out.

 

The Brexit referendum was absolutely undemocratic that is beyond question. The first past the post voting system can only be described as democratic because the population vote regularly.  Claiming that a vote which forsakes almost half of the population in perpetuity is somehow aligned with democratic principles is absurd.

Glad!  Why are you glad? Do you understand the consequences for Shetland? Are you glad that Shetlands sheep farmers, fisherman and now mussel farmers have been sold down the river and many are going to find themselves in serious trouble.  What do you think it will mean for Shetlands economy if sheep farming and mussel farming is no longer viable? What if the Salmon farming industry becomes non viable, Grieg is already bailing out of Shetland and Scotland because they can't make money here, what if the rest shut up shop, would you be glad about that too?

Here's a Shetland specific advantage of an independent Scotland for you and its the only one you should need:

The SNP have promised to rejoin the EU. 

Edit - reply to windwalker a couple of pages back, I somehow ballsed up the quote insertion.

Admin edit - we fixed the quote for you (assuming you meant to quote the quote we quoted for you!)

[Windwalker]

8 hours ago, JGHR said:

 

The Brexit referendum was absolutely undemocratic that is beyond question. The first past the post voting system can only be described as democratic because the population vote regularly.  Claiming that a vote which forsakes almost half of the population in perpetuity is somehow aligned with democratic principles is absurd.

Glad!  Why are you glad? Do you understand the consequences for Shetland? Are you glad that Shetlands sheep farmers, fisherman and now mussel farmers have been sold down the river and many are going to find themselves in serious trouble.  What do you think it will mean for Shetlands economy if sheep farming and mussel farming is no longer viable? What if the Salmon farming industry becomes non viable, Grieg is already bailing out of Shetland and Scotland because they can't make money here, what if the rest shut up shop, would you be glad about that too?

Here's a Shetland specific advantage of an independent Scotland for you and its the only one you should need:

The SNP have promised to rejoin the EU. 

Edit - reply to windwalker a couple of pages back, I somehow ballsed up the quote insertion.

Admin edit - we fixed the quote for you (assuming you meant to quote the quote we quoted for you!)

First past the post may not suit your agenda, but it’s what the country runs by at this time. Let’s see if you question it if the SNP wins the next Scottish elections.

The reason I’m now glad to be out of the EU is because my eyes have been opened and I’ve seen their true colours. They constantly tell us they are our friends yet have used every trick in the book to try and screw us over. They are an undemocratic slow moving, bureaucratic money wasting entity. Just this week we see them trying to justify that the U.K., who were quick of the mark, should hand over our jabs to them to the extent they were prepared to create a border in Ireland. Unbelievable action that has shown to create a dangerous situation resulting in EU border staff having to be removed for their own safety. They then realised their mistake and reversed the decision, accepted they had been slow off the mark, then within days changed their tune and said it wasn’t they were slow it was the U.K. who were too fast. You can’t make this stuff up. They use Ireland to fight their cause then screwed them over. They didn’t even have the decency to inform them they were about to close their border. It’s clear they will do what they can to ensure the U.K. fails because they know other countries will come to realise they would be better out than in. I could go on. I’m also glad that we are so far ahead with COVID jabs, that many of our friends, family and loved ones lives might be saved. 

I fully realise the consequences of the effects on our local businesses and believe in the main these will be short term, we are already seeing issues, blockages etc being resolved and the government offering financial support. Today alone the SNP announced 7.5 million for our fisheries. Such a major change will have a number of negativities, but I look to the future and believe the opportunities and markets opening up for our locals suppliers will eventually benefit them far greater than the EU.

At last someone offers a specific advantage of an independent Scotland and you say that will be Scotland re-joining the EU. A bold statement. How about putting some meat on the bones and explain all the positives, whilst doing that will you be willing to clearly explain the negatives and risks to our country or will you continue the same game of avoiding the things the SNP will try to hide.

when I get a bit more time I’ll happily lay out the major concerns I have.

 

[Windwalker]

 @JGHR, just another point. You say Greigs is already bailing out of Shetland, the suggestion being due to Brexit. Perhaps you should read Greigs own statement where they clearly say that all their Scottish sites are failing to make money, due to high morality and problems with jellyfish, COVID etc. Hence like any company with investors they have to make changes. No where do they mention or blame Brexit.

Tavish Scott however has said that he believes the operation will be bought out and continue in some form, let’s hope so for the sake of all its employees.

[Roachmill]

Ahem, as previously suggested, an independent Scotland would gain political freedom including an end to just voting SNP to try and get to that very point. You glazed over that fairly monumental milestone and appear to have a thing about expecting people to lay out other benefits / problems; all the while comparing SNP folk to chimps in suits. Can you understand why, perhaps, nobody is rushing to their keyboards? Please don't make the mistake of taking the lack of uptake on your requests as justification for independence being a terrible idea.... nor that those looking for it are walking towards it blindly.

[Windwalker]

19 minutes ago, Roachmill said:

Ahem, as previously suggested, an independent Scotland would gain political freedom including an end to just voting SNP to try and get to that very point. You glazed over that fairly monumental milestone and appear to have a thing about expecting people to lay out other benefits / problems; all the while comparing SNP folk to chimps in suits. Can you understand why, perhaps, nobody is rushing to their keyboards? Please don't make the mistake of taking the lack of uptake on your requests as justification for independence being a terrible idea.... nor that those looking for it are walking towards it blindly.

I see the statement of gaining political freedom as nothing other than a strap line. It doesn’t answer the questions about the effects of our such so called political freedom. Then when you get it, you want to give it away to the EU. How about discussing issues such as the effect on currency,  budget deficits, what happens if the EU refuse re-entry and if they do what might the terms be. Hard or soft border with England and the consequences. The issues with the carving up of U.K. assets and more importantly dept etc. What will happen to Scotland funding if Shetland decides to become a crown dependency taking its oil and fishing waters with it.

the reasons you/they don’t rush to their keyboards is not because I made a joke it’s because you/they would rather have a dig as deal with the concerns of those who can’t understand why so many SNP voters are happy to push ahead without answers to important questions. 
 

there’s nothing you’ve added that convinces me that some folk are determined to split the union regardless of the outcome for our country and without knowing the consequences. In other words ‘walking towards it blindly’

 

[Windwalker]

1 hour ago, George. said:

The Conservative and Unionist Party insist that they're our friends. The Labour Party insist exactly the same, as do the Lib Dems, with their wee Alistair Carmichael (The man that promised that he was going to leave politics). All pandering to Westminster, where the English live very close to.

Never forget just who inflicted the E.E.C. upon us, never forget who inflicted the Common Market upon us and never forget who inflicted the European Union (A new name for all the rest.) upon us.

Very democratic.

George your constant hate of everything English is certainly consistent and in previous posts you go back 300 years to blame James VI for creating the union. But what you forget to mention is the act of the union bailed out an otherwise bankrupted Scotland following its disastrous attempt to build its own trading empire, you don’t mention that more Scots fought with Cumberland at Culloden than against him. You don’t mention how the union helped end centuries of wars between our nations.

Scotland has done quite well out of the union in the last 300 years. Today Scots benefit from public spending that is around 10% higher then the U.K. average. If a bit of pandering to Westminster gets that result, I’m all for it.

 

Edited February 3, 2021 by Windwalker

[Roachmill]

23 minutes ago, Windwalker said:

I see the statement of gaining political freedom as nothing other than a strap line.

Well, it's kind of the fundamental (let's take the "yeah, it's mental alright!" joke as read) point of becoming an independent country and would have the largest impact on the future of Scotland. It's also something the SNP BAD!!! folk choose to completely ignore as it mean an end their only focus - hating on the SNP.

The political landscape of an independent Scotland is something non-experts can talk about with some actual insite. The alternative is to indulge in talking out of one's rear - or armchairing it - about topics without sufficient knowledge... or just bashing everything that doesn't fit with a predetermined view. Not going there!

[George.]

40 minutes ago, Windwalker said:

George your constant hate of everything English is certainly consistent and in previous posts you go back 300 years to blame James VI for creating the union.

It woul certainly be interesting to see justification for the statement telling us that I hate everything English.