Scottish Independence Referendum 2021

[George.]

^Westminster tends to keep pushing until they get the answer they want. 

[Rasmie]

Unless for Ian Blackford and his group, I don’t think anyone else is pushing at Westminster for a referendum.

[George.]

^Westminster tends to keep pushing until they get whatever answer they want. Control merchants to the root.

[Rasmie]

Yes the similarities between Westminster and Holyrood are great.

[Capeesh]

On 12/07/2022 at 16:19, Rasmie said:

And if, we have a referendum, and if it fails, when will the next one be?

If by "fails" you mean a no to independence then from a democratic standpoint it would be whenever the Scottish electorate demanded one by voting for a party or parties that have holding one in their manifesto's and them achieving a parliamentary majority on that issue. 

The same's true if by failure you mean the majority vote FOR independence. A party or parties would have to go to the polls with a manifesto pledge to hold a  referendum to ask the electorate if they want to give up their country's independence, they would then have to achieve the majority of MP's needed to vote it through Parliament. 

I know there's some people out there against Scottish independence who would prefer if all mention of it went away. Maybe if the UK government had done something to make the UK a more attractive proposition for some of the 'yes' and reluctant 'no' voters after the 2014 referendum it could've panned out that way... We'll never know. 

What I find disturbing are those who would deny ANY democratic path to independence. Thankfully we don't live in a dictatorship and despite some of the rhetoric that's out there Scotland is still a voluntary member of the United Kingdom. The people will decide whether or not they want to remain part of it. 

[Ghostrider]

^ Scotland can do anything they please, on one condition. That, in the event of Scotland holding a referendum, and the result is in support of Scottish Independence,  that they then give Shetland and/or Shetland and Orkney the opportunity to hold a referendum to decide whether Shetland and/or Orkney goes with Scotland as an independent country, stays with the UK, or something else.

Exactly the same reasons pro-independence campaigners cite as being the 'problem' with Scotland being part of the UK exist for Shetland being part of an independent Scotland.

Shetland is approx equally physically distant from Edinburgh as Edinburgh is from London, and while Westminster is generally run by those from south of Watford, Scotland is run by Central Belt Socialists. We are neither, so are 'outsiders' to both.

If the Scots are willing to let us have that referendum, they can do what they please with what's between John o' Groats and Hadrian's wall, I really don't care about what goes on there. However, if they're not willing to agree to a referendum for us, then we should be blocking their's at any opportunity on the grounds they're hypocrites.

I won't argue about what Westminster may or may not have done post 2014 that has affected Scotland's relationship with the Union, need a crystal ball and all that. However, had the Nat's 'independence' proposals in the run up to the last referendum been genuine plans for independence, some of us 'No' voters might have been tempted to go with 'Yes' instead. Independence is wholly incompatible with sharing/retaining the Monarchy of another separate nation, and it is financial suicide to share/retain a common currency with another separate nation, especially when the currency remains 100% within the control of the other separate nation. At very best that's 'Devolution Max', not independence.

Regardless of whether Scottish Independence would be a good or bad thing, that 'mis-selling' of what they were asking people to vote for was more than enough to make some of us drop it like it was red hot and acquire an eternal deep suspicion and distrust of the people trying to sell it.

 

[Capeesh]

19 hours ago, Ghostrider said:

^ Scotland can do anything they please, on one condition. That, in the event of Scotland holding a referendum, and the result is in support of Scottish Independence,  that they then give Shetland and/or Shetland and Orkney the opportunity to hold a referendum to decide whether Shetland and/or Orkney goes with Scotland as an independent country, stays with the UK, or something else...

... However, if they're not willing to agree to a referendum for us, then we should be blocking their's at any opportunity on the grounds they're hypocrites...

If you go through this quote ^^^ and change "Scotland" to "the UK" ... Then change "Scottish independence" to "Brexit" you get a good example of hypocrisy. It would go something like this...........

 

The UK can do anything they please, on one condition. That, in the event of the UK holding a referendum, and the result is in support of Brexit,  that they then give Shetland and/or Shetland and Orkney the opportunity to hold a referendum to decide whether Shetland and/or Orkney goes with the UK as an independent country, stays with the EU, or something else...

... However, if they're not willing to agree to a referendum for us, then we should be blocking their's at any opportunity on the grounds they're hypocrites...

Edited July 16, 2022 by Capeesh

[Capeesh]

Brexiteers (leaving a union of Nations) - Doesn't matter if 2 out of the 4 Nations of the UK didn't want to leave the EU, respect the result, sovereignty, self determination, democracy etc etc

Also Brexiteers (leaving a different union of Nations) -cough cough, Not you Scotland, we won't allow it, send the troops in, we will only allow it if you partition your country and give us some etc etc. 

Edited July 17, 2022 by Capeesh

[Colin]

4 hours ago, Capeesh said:

Brexiteers (leaving a union of Nations) - Doesn't matter if 2 out of the 4 Nations of the UK didn't want to leave the EU, respect the result, sovereignty, self determination, democracy etc etc

It was a National Vote spread over all four nations.

I always thought that the majority (of those who voted) voted to leave.  I guess that is the 'democracy' and 'self determination' you speak of.

 

[Roachmill]

Thanks Colin. You demonstrate why the call for independence exists quite succinctly.

[Capeesh]

@ Colin Yes absolutely! 

1)The UK voted for a party that stated it was going to have a referendum on EU membership

2)The referendum was arranged in the UK with no interference from the EU on the process, eg  timing, question etc

3)The referendum went ahead, the majority voted to leave and the UK left. 

Now a few years on we're in this situation with Scotland... 

1)Scotland voted for parties that stated they're going to have a referendum on UK membership.... See the similarities? 

(Here's where the hypocrisy about sovereignty, self determination and democracy comes into effect) 

2)UK to Scotland - You can only have a referendum if/when WE allow it. 

That's the UK government's hypocrisy, some of the stuff I've heard from Brexit voters, even on this thread, goes further than this into the realms of the ludicrous. 

Things like.. Insinuating the UK government could ignore the result of any plebiscite and send the troops in. Cheerleading the partition of Scotland. (these are just a couple of examples in the last few posts, can't be bothered to look further but there's loads and loads of this type of stuff. 

The funny thing is this, imagine if the EU had said to the UK something along these lines...

'you can't have a referendum unless we say so and if you have any type of plebiscite without our permission we won't accept it, we'll send our troops in, you can maybe get a vote on the condition that we keep the chunks of your country that voted to remain. etc etc' 

It's absolutely unthinkable! Imagine the front pages of the Daily Mail, I'm sure they had some made up garbage about some EU directive on bananas! They would've had a field day with troop ships crossing the channel! 

 

 

Edited July 17, 2022 by Capeesh

[Capeesh]

The Supreme Court has ruled on the legality of the Scottish Parliament holding a referendum and the five judges unanimously said it can't hold one. 

They were also at pains to say Scotland was not a colony. 

There's also been loads of interviews with politicians of the unionist persuasion that go something like this... 

Q1: "Is the union a voluntary one?" 

A: "Of course it is!" 

Q2: "How do you get out of it then?" 

A: "Oh look, there's a squirrel >>>> *politician vanishes*

Now call me cynical but if people from another country that rule you tell you you're not a colony but you've no democratic or legal way to be free of their rule what on Earth is Scotland? 

[Rasmie]

The Supreme Court can only look at the law and simply say if it’s within the law or outside it.  Currently, apparently, the law can only be changed by the UK parliament. I would suggest that this needs amendment as unless the rUK wants rid of Scotland then that can not be achieved. If in fact indyref one had voted overwhelmingly to leave the UK, it did not mean independence automatically and it still would have to be discussed and agreed by the UK parliament. Although I am not sold on Scottish Independence, I agree people have the right to self-determination , and this refusal to allow a referendum is a great rallying call for the independence parties. It is all very divisive, especially as the people’s of the different parts of the UK are so interconnected by business and family. 

[Capeesh]

I agree, the Supreme Court can only interperate the law as it stands but those laws were written in a Parliament where Scottish MP's are outnumbered by more than 10:1 and a second unelected House of Lords full of Tory and Labour cronies completely opposed to Scottish independence. 

When the Scotland Act was rewritten after 2014 nearly all the Scottish elected representatives in Westminster were SNP and every single amendment they put forward for the Bill was voted down by MP's from outwith Scotland and then finalised and written into Law by the House of Lords. The amendment you talk of will always go the same way. 

I find nothing divisive about a Nation wanting to run their own affairs, it's completely normal. Ties of family are unaffected by where on the globe they live. Business ties will be affected without a doubt but let's not forget that the Brexit the majority of Scots opposed put unnecessary obstacles in the path of our business ties with 500 million of our European friends and neighbours. 

Right now Scotland is an energy rich country paying through the nose for energy, we have the only two party's with a chance of power, (Conservative and Labour) doubling down on a Brexit Scotland didn't want, a court telling us Scotland is no more than an English county, a Tory government Scotland has rejected at the polls since 1955 and to top it all off we're being told that Scotland is in a "voluntary union" we can't seem to get out of. 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Capeesh

[Capeesh]

Interpret*... spelling and punctuation... D-

 

 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Capeesh