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Scottish Independence Referendum 2021


Scottish Independence Poll  

45 members have voted

  1. 1. Should Scotland be an independent country?

    • Yes
      22
    • No
      19
    • Undecided
      4


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23 minutes ago, Roachmill said:

Well, it's kind of the fundamental (let's take the "yeah, it's mental alright!" joke as read) point of becoming an independent country and would have the largest impact on the future of Scotland. It's also something the SNP BAD!!! folk choose to completely ignore as it mean an end their only focus - hating on the SNP.

The political landscape of an independent Scotland is something non-experts can talk about with some actual insite. The alternative is to indulge in talking out of one's rear - or armchairing it - about topics without sufficient knowledge... or just bashing everything that doesn't fit with a predetermined view. Not going there!

The problem is, is there is insufficient knowledge of possible outcomes, no doubt from Sturgeon down, but we are still being told by the SNP that Scotland would be stronger on its own ! How?  
 

Today, according to the London school of economics they say the costs of independence would be 2-3 times higher than for Brexit. Academics from the LSE have concluded that independence would hit the Scottish economy harder than Brexit and re-joining the EU would make little difference. It suggests that independence would cause an equivalent loss of £2,000 - £2800 per person in Scotland. This worries me. 
 

I was hoping that the staunch SNP voters on here could convince me of the benefits of independence. If they all feel independence is going to improve our lot, could they share the information which has lead to that decision. If not why are they not happy to admit that they want out of the union regardless of outcome and cost to our country.

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God bless the spacebar!

@George. you've peppered this and many other threads with vague, inaccurate and often xenophobic posts about things being 'inflicted' on 'us' and how it is 'undemocratic' but have failed to offer any

If Scotland is such a drain on England how come Westminster is so keen to keep hold of us? Independence can't come soon enough.  If we had it now our fish could be sold in Europe, because Scotlan

22 minutes ago, George. said:

It woul certainly be interesting to see justification for the statement telling us that I hate everything English.

George with all due respect, your posts do that for you. It certainly comes across as that. 
I could pick up on your spelling George, but let’s just blame Westminster;-)

Edited by Windwalker
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@George. you've peppered this and many other threads with vague, inaccurate and often xenophobic posts about things being 'inflicted' on 'us' and how it is 'undemocratic' but have failed to offer any detail. You ignore questions directly posed to you about your accusations but you demand that other users justify their points. You're trolling, and it's tedious. You have also been warned and blocked several times so we're removing your repetitious posts and our fingers are hovering over the 'ban' button unless you back up your accusations with evidence or reasoning.

So in an effort to move on positively, please do provide some evidence or reasoning why joining the EEC or EU was undemocratic, why Westminster is undemocratic or what exactly Ted Heath, Anthony Eden, James VI or whoever else did that you don't like. Thanks in advance, the Shetlink admins.

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On 02/02/2021 at 23:46, JGHR said:

 

The Brexit referendum was absolutely undemocratic that is beyond question. The first past the post voting system can only be described as democratic because the population vote regularly.  Claiming that a vote which forsakes almost half of the population in perpetuity is somehow aligned with democratic principles is absurd.

Glad!  Why are you glad? Do you understand the consequences for Shetland? Are you glad that Shetlands sheep farmers, fisherman and now mussel farmers have been sold down the river and many are going to find themselves in serious trouble.  What do you think it will mean for Shetlands economy if sheep farming and mussel farming is no longer viable? What if the Salmon farming industry becomes non viable, Grieg is already bailing out of Shetland and Scotland because they can't make money here, what if the rest shut up shop, would you be glad about that too?

Here's a Shetland specific advantage of an independent Scotland for you and its the only one you should need:

The SNP have promised to rejoin the EU. 

Edit - reply to windwalker a couple of pages back, I somehow ballsed up the quote insertion.

Admin edit - we fixed the quote for you (assuming you meant to quote the quote we quoted for you!)

The mussel farmers in Shetland don’t export any to the EU so they will be fine.

Griegs problems had nothing to do with brexit as they themselves have said and the other salmon companies in Shetland are doing fine.

The main impact on the mussel and Finfish industry at the moment is COVID and not Brexit, as restaurants etc are closed or needing less product.

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23 hours ago, Windwalker said:

The problem is, is there is insufficient knowledge of possible outcomes, no doubt from Sturgeon down, but we are still being told by the SNP that Scotland would be stronger on its own ! How?  

Erm... by being in charge of our own affairs? I know you want to dismiss that but I'll add more to that for you to dismiss below.

On 03/02/2021 at 13:18, Windwalker said:

Today, according to the London school of economics they say the costs of independence would be 2-3 times higher than for Brexit. Academics from the LSE have concluded that independence would hit the Scottish economy harder than Brexit and re-joining the EU would make little difference. It suggests that independence would cause an equivalent loss of £2,000 - £2800 per person in Scotland. This worries me. 

It should worry anyone and I doubt you'll be any less worried by anything suggested to mitigate this [based solely on trade figures alone] study. For example, being able to set taxation and altering course on the Tory mantra of lowering taxes for the people paying them to do just that. Before you come with the "but it'll scare away investment and big business" I'll throw out this from the LSE: Keeping tax low for the rich does not boost economy.

There's pensions too which are supposed to increase under an independent Scotland and not be transformed into a welfare payment as the Tories are repeatedly try to do. Remember the shameful act of No campaigners going door-to-door last time telling pensioners they'd lose their contributions if Yes won?

On 03/02/2021 at 13:18, Windwalker said:

I was hoping that the staunch SNP voters on here could convince me of the benefits of independence. If they all feel independence is going to improve our lot, could they share the information which has lead to that decision. If not why are they not happy to admit that they want out of the union regardless of outcome and cost to our country.

Perhaps the "staunch SNP voters" are all too busy waving their flags (or eating bananas) whilst you're here being "worried" but dismissing any benefits offered. If, as you keep demanding to be provided with, you're looking for cast iron certainties that an independent Scotland of the future will enrich you, you're onto plums as a working crystal ball has yet to be invented. However, if you're just coming here under said guise of being all "worried" to just push for No (you did the same before IIRC) then... *walks off mumbling naughty words*

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1 hour ago, Roachmill said:

Erm... by being in charge of our own affairs? I know you want to dismiss that but I'll add more to that for you to dismiss below.

It should worry anyone and I doubt you'll be any less worried by anything suggested to mitigate this [based solely on trade figures alone] study. For example, being able to set taxation and altering course on the Tory mantra of lowering taxes for the people paying them to do just that. Before you come with the "but it'll scare away investment and big business" I'll throw out this from the LSE: Keeping tax low for the rich does not boost economy.

There's pensions too which are supposed to increase under an independent Scotland and not be transformed into a welfare payment as the Tories are repeatedly try to do. Remember the shameful act of No campaigners going door-to-door last time telling pensioners they'd lose their contributions if Yes won?

Perhaps the "staunch SNP voters" are all too busy waving their flags (or eating bananas) whilst you're here being "worried" but dismissing any benefits offered. If, as you keep demanding to be provided with, you're looking for cast iron certainties that an independent Scotland of the future will enrich you, you're onto plums as a working crystal ball has yet to be invented. However, if you're just coming here under said guise of being all "worried" to just push for No (you did the same before IIRC) then... *walks off mumbling naughty words*

Roachmill, you continue to try and belittle me, which seems to be the tactics of SNP supporters, if we don’t have the answers we will try to make the non believers look bad. I’m sorry if you find my attempts to understand your position annoying and you dismiss that fact I’m worried for potential outcomes for our country.  I certainly am not looking for cast iron guarantees but agree my concerns are that we end up considerably worse off. The problem seems to be that the SNP and many of its supporters blatantly dismiss everything which doesn’t meet their agenda and can’t really come anywhere near giving any evidence of how Scotland will be better off.

You suggest being in charge as our own affairs as an answer, but want to hand these powers back to the EU. They will eventually control our currency, borrowing etc. The same as they do with the likes of Greece.
 

I’ll agree to disagree with you.
 

 

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Jeezo. You've made no attempt to understand the position offered ("it's a strap line") and I didn't dismiss your LSE trade concern ("It should worry anyone") as it is, indeed, a real worry.

You repeatedly invite folk to convince you of something you're clearly against under the guise of being worried, ignore actual positives and resort to name calling along the way. Your more than guilty of that which you accuse others.

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How does an independent Scotland intend to deal with defense, will we have to make an annual payment to what's left of the UK and carry on the same,if not what happens to all the military establishments throughout Scotland including Saxa Vord.

Cannot believe that we would not have some form of military security,but it certainly would not be as robust as it is just now as a National entity.

Would we charge "England" to rent Saxa Vord and all other sensitive sites, or just kick them out.

Will we have our own fishery protection vessel.

See nothing but problems looming ahead.

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16 minutes ago, Roachmill said:

Jeezo. You've made no attempt to understand the position offered ("it's a strap line") and I didn't dismiss your LSE trade concern ("It should worry anyone") as it is, indeed, a real worry.

You repeatedly invite folk to convince you of something you're clearly against under the guise of being worried, ignore actual positives and resort to name calling along the way. Your more than guilty of that which you accuse others.

We are clearly at opposite ends on this and I agree I’m completely against independence in this manner, where the country has already made a decision some short years ago and were in the middle of a pandemic. My position was that I wanted to see if I was missing something. Unfortunately there is little that has convinced me that we’re not better of in the union.
 

You will be surprised to learn that I’m not completely against independence. Personally what I’d like to see is the Scottish government convincing me they can improve our lot, devolved issues like education improve rather than decline, then let’s seek more devolved areas and bit by bit get to a stage where it makes sense to our population to take that final step, where the evidence is clear that it makes good sense for the country. I’m sorry if you disagree with me but I can’t see the evidence at this point in time. It just too big a risk in my opinion.

Clearly my joke offended you, that was not it’s intention so I’m happy to apologise, I thought the winky emoji would confirm that it was a joke.

Where we stand at present I’m not convinced that Sturgeon will get another vote in the near future and even if she does, I hope that with the obvious lack of clear information she doesn’t win. As a back up plan in case she wins, I hope Shetland has the sense to become a crown dependency. I’ll likely be 6 feet under by that time.

However if we were to take peerie steps meantime. I might jump on board.

Lets agree to disagree.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Windwalker said:

Personally what I’d like to see is the Scottish government convincing me they can improve our lot, devolved issues like education improve rather than decline, then let’s seek more devolved areas and bit by bit get to a stage where it makes sense to our population to take that final step, where the evidence is clear that it makes good sense for the country.

IMHO, that is certainly a pretty positive statement.

Sturgeon: SNP will hold Scottish independence vote if it wins in May

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8 hours ago, George. said:

IMHO, that is certainly a pretty positive statement.

Sturgeon: SNP will hold Scottish independence vote if it wins in May

I’m a bit confused George, if I read it right,  you quote a bit of my post about taking independence in small steps, saying that in your opinion it’s a pretty positive statement, but then add a link which says Sturgeon will crash ahead with a referendum regardless of whether it would be legal or not.

The two are completely different approaches, could you clarify which approach your in favour of and maybe give some reasons. Thanks.

 

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I think that I'm very happy to hear of your, possibly partial, agreement with the thoughts and attitude of the S.N.P.   @Windwalker.  To the reason that I included the Guardian link was because it was yet another statement or claim by yet somebody else.

As I see it, yet another side to the battle is beneficial.

Edited by George.
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23 minutes ago, George. said:

I think that I'm very happy to hear of your, possibly partial, agreement with the thoughts and attitude of the S.N.P.   @Windwalker.  To the reason that I included the Guardian link was because it was yet another statement or claim by yet somebody else.

As I see it, yet another side to the battle is beneficial.

Thanks for that George, glad to make someone a bit happier in the current climate. I must point out though, that whilst I see a way that ‘a’ Scottish government might over a long period of time convince the Scottish people, I no way agree with the current thoughts and attitudes of the SNP, in particular to how they are going about it, their timing and the disregard to more than half the populations previous vote less than 6 years ago.

The unfortunate outcome is that our country remains so divided. 

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