Scottish Independence Referendum 2021

[angelpie]

On 24/01/2021 at 20:33, blue beetle said:

 Scotland has a huge hole in their finances which has to be topped up by the English every year. Which is also where the money came from via the EU for all the so called benefits of membership we keep hearing about. The SNP are not keen on salmon farming , oil, gas, fracking, or fishing. except to give away our grounds to the EU. They seem to want to turn our farm land into some sort of theme park. Our heavy industries are a shadow of their former selves . The defence basses would all have to close and the holy grail of reentry into the EU will be vetoed by the Spanish because of Catalonia. Not to mention the fact that they do not need another economic basket case added to their now dwindling budget. Scotland is also the sick man of Europe and the drugs capital of well the world with all the extra social costs that comes with it. There is probably more but i feel ive made my point. And the question i have to ask myself is where is the money going to come from to pay for independence.  Also the clamour for indie ref 2 is mostly being driven by a hatred of Boris johnson. But he is a here today gone tomorrow politician . And Scotland it seems to me will be struggling to balance the books long long after he has gone. Oh i forgot to mention Scotlands share of the national debt. 

Scotland doesn't have a deficit as it has no power to borrow. Its the UKs black hole. It's up to negotiations about how much we accept in return for the assets we own in the UK such as our share of the gold reserve. Scotland would not have to pay for a lot of things it doesn't want like Trident, the house of Lords and Westminster and there would be a lot of well paid jobs that come to Scotland such as embassadors, home office, passports, MI5, hmrc etc. SNP don't hate salmon and oil etc. They may lean to the green side but they would support all businesses you mentioned other than fracking. The money will come from what we generate in Scotland and we will have the power to borrow just like all other small countries. The broad shoulders of the UK have cost us a national fund the size of Norway's. Unlike Brexit, there will be a white paper that explains everything. Independence will allow Scotland to go in a different direction from the one the Tories are dragging us, back to the Victorian era and greater inequality. Without independence were at the mercy of whatever bunch of fools England selects next. 

[Roachmill]

19 hours ago, Windwalker said:

I’m completely against independence

Well that's a step in the right direction. And please do understand that both opposing viewpoints have their merits as well as gaping holes in their logic. They also both have their fanatical believers which are best given a wide berth. We'll get nowhere forming tribal lines, dismissing all considerations we don't like and general name calling just kills the chance of actual dialogue that may prove beneficial.

FWIW, I do not envisage, should it come to be, a transference to independence being a walk in the park at all. Not one bit. Trade, logistics, currency and a whole raft of other things (some my wee brain likely has not even considered yet) are all there. However, one of the biggest fears I have is the campaigning to come. I don't see it being what it should be: fair, honestly informed and conducted in an old school sportsmanship like fashion. The media is going to play a pivotal role yet again... and that never bodes well for anyone but what the folk at the top want the outcome to be - which invariably comes down to making more money.

[Windwalker]

8 minutes ago, Roachmill said:

Well that's a step in the right direction. And please do understand that both opposing viewpoints have their merits as well as gaping holes in their logic. They also both have their fanatical believers which are best given a wide berth. We'll get nowhere forming tribal lines, dismissing all considerations we don't like and general name calling just kills the chance of actual dialogue that may prove beneficial.

FWIW, I do not envisage, should it come to be, a transference to independence being a walk in the park at all. Not one bit. Trade, logistics, currency and a whole raft of other things (some my wee brain likely has not even considered yet) are all there. However, one of the biggest fears I have is the campaigning to come. I don't see it being what it should be: fair, honestly informed and conducted in an old school sportsmanship like fashion. The media is going to play a pivotal role yet again... and that never bodes well for anyone but what the folk at the top want the outcome to be - which invariably comes down to making more money.

Mmhh, naughty. You missed the full quote which was: I’m completely against independence “in this manner”. I also in the same post confirm that I’m not against independence, if it were to be done in sma steps.

However I’m enlightened by the rest of your post. One of my concerns and I’ve said it on here, is some SNP folk seem hell bent on independence at whatever cost to the country, it’s very refreshing to see someone who accepts this would be fraught with difficulties and completely agree with you that the media will make a bun fight out of this if it moves forward which will inevitably make our vote more difficult and confusing.

[Capeesh]

19 hours ago, George. said:

IMHO, that is certainly a pretty positive statement.

Sturgeon: SNP will hold Scottish independence vote if it wins in May

I agree, democracy in action.

[Urabug]

Jo Swinson declined to respect that the Liberal party had a number of supporters who were in agreement of Brexit ,which she was very much against, and IMHO this cost her,her place in parliament and the Liberal leadership. 

Nichola Sturgeon would be well advised to take into account that not everyone who votes SNP necessarily want independence and may as a result vote elsewhere to her and her party cost.

[George.]

30 minutes ago, Urabug said:

Jo Swinson declined to respect that the Liberal party had a number of supporters who were in agreement of Brexit ,which she was very much against, and IMHO this cost her,her place in parliament and the Liberal leadership.

Joanne Kate Swinson CBE is a British, former Liberal Democrat politician.

C.B.E? Very British. Well, for them down the south end.

C.B.E? Commander of the British Empire, but that's wee Jojo for you - although she's still former, but British to the root. Where the foreigners live.
 

Edited February 5, 2021 by George.

[Capeesh]

@UrabugOr it could be the last 20 polls are right and the majority of voters in Scotland want independence.

Edited February 5, 2021 by Capeesh

[Windwalker]

54 minutes ago, Capeesh said:

I agree, democracy in action.

Well that’s if democracy was about holding an illegal referendum which neither the U.K. government nor the E.U. will recognise.

[Capeesh]

How would it be illegal?

Edited February 5, 2021 by Capeesh

[George.]

11 minutes ago, Windwalker said:

Well that’s if democracy was about holding an illegal referendum which neither the U.K. government nor the E.U. will recognise.

I would suggest however that it's rather more democratic than Westminster, where the rest of them live.

And it must be asked, where is the U.K. and does it have anything to do with us?

Edited February 5, 2021 by George.

[admin]

^ trolling + ignoring warnings = banned for a week

[Windwalker]

19 minutes ago, Capeesh said:

How would it be illegal?

Unless I’m wrong the holding of an independence referendum can only take place with the approval of Westminster it’s not a devolved decision. She could apply to the Supreme Court, but I can’t see them going against a process which is written in law. Johnson has so far refused mainly on the bases of a once in a generation argument. Any “wildcat” referendum will not be recognised by the U.K. or EU. 

Im sure I read somewhere that if Sturgeon decided to hold a “wildcat” referendum using public funds, she could find herself in a bit of bother, but I don’t know if there’s any truth in that.

Edited February 5, 2021 by Windwalker
Missed something

[Capeesh]

49 minutes ago, Windwalker said:

Unless I’m wrong the holding of an independence referendum can only take place with the approval of Westminster...

If the majority of the Scottish electorate vote for parties supporting independence that's democracy in action.

If those parties use their mandated majority in the Scottish parliament and vote to hold a referendum on independence that's democracy in action.

A referendum is a further democratic event designed to guage the will of the electorate (it also removes the doubt that Urabug raised regarding  voters that vote for independence parties but don't support independence).

If Westminster refuses then you tell me, what democratic route to independence is left?

 

Edited February 5, 2021 by Capeesh

[Davie P]

My understanding is that the Scottish Parliament can hold an advisory referendum on anything it wishes. The Scottish Parliament would only need approval for a legally binding Independence referendum because the constitutional position of the UK is a 'reserved' matter for Westminster.

It's quite a distinct difference and would need to be made abundantly clear to avoid the post-Brexit referendum fiasco.

[Windwalker]

4 minutes ago, Capeesh said:

If the majority of the Scottish electorate vote for parties supporting independence that's democracy in action.

If those parties use their mandated majority in the Scottish parliament and vote to hold a referendum on independence that's democracy in action.

A referendum is a further democratic event designed to guage the will of the electorate (it also removes the doubt that Urabug raised regarding  voters that vote for independence parties but don't support independence).

If Westminster refuses then you tell me, what democratic route to independence is left?

 

I understand where your coming from but Just because you vote to do something doesn’t make it legal. I would assume they will have to keep applying pressure on the government to change their mind. 
 

Having a wildcat referendum may prove its what the majority of Scotland want, but unless the government agree, it’s a stand off. I can’t see how Sturgeon can move ahead if the U.K. government won’t play ball. I have no idea how this will play out, if I did, I’d be very rich.