Religion & Theology (& should we respect beliefs)

[Kephas4]

And the rest!

Long before the Roman Empire spread its acquisitive little paws across the then known world, Europe was celebrating something at Midwinter. Throughout the Northern Hemisphere the passing seasons were marked - the further north you lived, the more cause for celebration.

Personally I'm looking forward to the shortest day, as it means that thereafter the days'll get brighter, the nights shorter, maybe, just maybe, the weather better...

Whether you look at it from a sacred or secular perspective, that's something to be glad about.

[Marmalade]

Why is it justified in that film?

 

Because it is awesome.

 

 

 

I know about the similarities in stories of the birth of Jesus Christ because obviously with all the religions that exist and existed there are going to be many examples of births of 'chose ones'

 

I remember watching a video someone posted about other deities born with to a virgin, reborn, had 12 disciples and so on. If you actually took the time to research them you would see that this is actually not true. The stories are all quite different.

 

Yet I don't fully disagree with it completely as there are examples of religion evolving over time or remoulding God's to fit ones society (happens still today)

[Jeemsie1989]

Because it is awesome.

 

It stars Will Ferrell, how can it be awesome?

 

Sorry, off topic.

 

They maybe different in terms of beliefs, but they all use the same basis. The only reason they are different is because they were designed by different societies, like you said.

[Marmalade]

What same basis? Can you give me some examples?

 

One I remember from the video is Dionyses who was son of Zeus along with a huge hoard of bairns. Who was not actually born of virgin birth. His mam Semele, was impregnated by Zeus when he was in a disguise as no mortal can set eyes apon him in his real form as it will kill them. However this does happen to Semele when she begs to see him so Zeus has to take Dionyses out early to prevent his death. Keeps the babe in his thigh (Like a male seahorse) and births him himself later - the part of the example of his rebirth. Poor example.

[JAStewart]

Same as Jesus, virgin births (allegedly)

 

Pharaoh Amenkept III

Ra

Krishna

Karna

Tammuz

Zoroaster

Tukulti-Ninurta II

Ashurbanipal

 

etc

[EM]

What same basis? Can you give me some examples?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_virgin_births

[KOYAANISQATSI]

Christmas is coming, as in Christ Mass, the mass of that bloke Jesus, also known as, and tacked onto Yule: the sacrificial midwinter feast.

What is it that staunch atheists celebrate at this time and what do they call it, or do they uphold their assertions and ignore what is undoubtedly 'just another day'?

 

It seems to me like there are an awful lot a Christians out there that seem absolutely positive that Jesus is, of course, unique and the first of his kind.  They are unaware that the myth of their Christ is similar to several other god-men myths.  Here are some of those other mythical god-men that Jesus, the Christian Messiah, apparently shares roots with.  While most Christians are unaware of these god-men, others will deny their existence and say that I (or anyone else who mentions them) is telling a lie.  If not that, the devil simply planted the story of Jesus into the minds of people long ago, to lead the astray from the true Christ.

 

Attis of Phrygia

 

--Attis was born on December 25 of the Virgin Nana.

--He was considered the savior who was slain for the salvation of mankind.

--His body as bread was eaten by his worshippers

--His priests were “eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven.â€

--He was both the Divine Son and the Father.

--On “Black Friday,†he was crucified on a tree, from which his holy blood ran down to redeem the earth.

--He descended into the underworld.

--After three days, Attis was resurrected on March 25 (as tradition held of Jesus) as the “Most High God.

 

Dionysus/Bacchus

 

     Dionysus or Bacchus is thought of as being Greek, but he is a remake of the Egyptian god Osiris, whose cult extended throughout a large part of the ancient world for thousands of years.  Dionysus’s religion was well-developed in Thrace, northeast of Greece, and Phrygia, which became Galatia, where Attis also later reigned.  Although a Dionysus is best remembered for the rowdy celebrations in his name, which was Latinized as Bacchus, he had many other functions and contributed several aspects to the Jesus character:

 

--Dionysus was born of a virgin on December 25 and, as the Holy Child, was placed in a manger.

--He was a traveling teacher who performed miracles.

--He “rode in a triumphal procession on an ass.â€

--He was a sacred king killed and eaten in an eucharistic ritual for fecundity and purification.

--Dionysus rose from the dead on March 25.

--He was the God of the Vine, and turned water into wine.

--He was called “King of Kings†and “God of Gods.â€

--He was considered the “Only Begotten Son,†Savior,†“Redeemer,†“Sin Bearer,†Anointed One,†and the “Alpha and Omega.â€

--He was identified with the Ram or Lamb.

--His sacrificial title of “Dendrites†or “Young Man of the Tree†intimates he was hung on a tree or crucified.

 

Osiris’s “son†or renewed incarnation, Horus, shares the following in common with Jesus:

 

--Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Merion December 25 in a cave/manger with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.

--His earthly father was named “Seb†(“Josephâ€).

--He was of royal descent.

--At at 12, he was a child teacher in the Temple, and at 30, he was baptized having disappeared for 18 years.

--Horus was baptized in the river Eridanus or Iarutana (Jordan) by “Anup the Baptizer†(“John the Baptistâ€), who was decapitated.

--He had 12 desciples, two of who were his “witnesses†and were named “Anup†and “Aan†(the two “Johnsâ€).

--He performed miracles, exorcised demons and raised El-Azarus (“El-Osirisâ€), from the dead.

--Horus walked on water.

--His personal epithet was “Iusa,†the “ever-becoming son†of  “Ptah,†the “Father.â€Â  He was thus called “Holy Child.â€

--He delivered a “Sermon on the Mount†and his followers recounted the “Sayings of Iusa.â€

--Horus was transfigured on the Mount.

--He was crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, and resurrected.

--He was also the “Way, the Truth, the Light,†“Messiah,†“God’s Anointed Son,†“the “Son of Man,†the “Good Shepherd,†the “Lamb of God,†the “Word made flesh,†the “Word of Truth,†etc.

--He was “the Fisher†and was associated with the Fish (“Ichthysâ€), Lamb and Lion.

--He came to fulfill the Law.

--Horus was called “the KRST,†or “Anointed One.â€

--Like Jesus, “Horus was supposed to reign one thousand years.â€

 

Furthermore, inscribed about 3,500 years ago [1500 years before Jesus’ alleged advent] on the walls of the Temple at Luxor were images of the Annunciation, Immaculate Conception, Birth and Adoration of Horus, with Thoth announcing to the Virgin Isis that she will conceive Horus; with Kneph the “Holy Ghost,†impregnating the virgin; and with the infant being attended bh three kings, or magi, bearing gifts.  In addition, in the catacombs at Rome are pictures of the baby Horus being held by the virgin mother Isis—the original “Madonna and Child.â€

 

Krishna of India

The similarities between the Christian character and the Indian messiah Krishna number in the hundreds, particularly when the early Christian texts now considered apocrypha are factored in.  It should be noted that a common earlier English spelling of Krishna was “Christna,†which reveals its relation to “Christ.â€Â  Also, in Bengali, Krishna is reputedly “Christos,†which is the same as the Greek for “Christ†and which the soldiers of Alexander the Great called Krishna.  It should be further noted that, as with Jesus, Buddha and Osiris, many people have believed and continue to believe in a historical Krishna.  The following is a partial list of the correspondences between Jesus and Krishna:

--Krishna was born of  the Virgin Devaki (“Divine Oneâ€) on December 25.

--His earthly father was a carpenter, who was off in the city paying tax while Krishna was born.

--His birth was signaled by a star in the east and attended by angels and shepherds, at which time he was presented with spices.

--The heavenly hosts danced and sang at his birth.

--He was persecuted by a tyrant who ordered the slaughter of thousands of infants.

--Krishna was anointed on the head with oil by a woman whom he healed.

--He is depicted as having his foot on the head of a serpent.

--He worked miracles and wonders, raising the dead and healing lepers, the deaf and the blind.

--Krishna used parables to teach the people about charity and love, and he “lived poor and he loved the poor.â€

--He castigated the clergy, charging them with “ambition and hypocrisy . . . Tradition says he fell victim to their vengeance.â€

--Krishna’s “beloved disciple†was Arjuina or Ar-jouan (Jouhn).

--He was transfigured in front of his disciples.

--He gave his disciples the ability to work miracles.

--His path was “strewn with branches.â€

--In some traditions he died on a tree or was crucified between two thieves.

--Krishna was killed around the age of 30, and the sun darkened at his death.

--He rose from the dead and ascended to heaven “in the sight of all men.â€

--He was depicted on a cross with nail-holes in his feet, as well as having a heart emblem on his clothing.

--Krishna is the “lion of the tribe of Saki.â€

--He was called the “Shepherd of God†and considered the “Redeemer,†“Firstborn,†“Sin-Bearer,†“Liberator,†“Universal Word.â€

--He was deemed the “Son of God†and “our Lord and Savior,†who came to earth to die for man’s salvation.

--He was the second person of the Trinity.

--His disciples purportedly bestowed upon him the title “Jezeus,†or “Jeseus,†meaning “pure essence.â€

 

Mithra of Persia

 

--Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25 in a cave, and his birth was attended by shepherds bearing gifts.

--He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.

--He had 12 companions or disciples.

--Mithra’s followers were promised immortality.

--He performed miracles.

--As the “great bull of the Sun,†Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace.

--He was buried in atomb and after three days rose again.

--His resurrection was celebrated every year.

--He was called “the Good Shepherd†and identified with both the Lamb and the Lion.

--He was considered the “Way, the Truth and the Light,†and the “Logos,†[Word] “Redeemer,†“Savior†and “Messiah.â€

--His sacred day was Sunday, the “Lord’s Day,†hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.

--Mithra had his principal festival on what was later to become Easter.

--His religion had a eucharist or “Lord’s Supper,†at which Mithra said, “He who shall nto eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved.â€

--“His annual sacrifice is the Passover of the Magi, a symbolical atonement of pledge of moral and physical regeneration.â€

 

     Furthermore, the Vatican itself is built upon the papacy of Mithra, and the Christian hierarchy is nearly identical to the Mithraic version it replaced

 

Zoroaster/Zarathustra

 

--Zoroaster was born of a virgin and “immaculate conception by a ray of divine reason.â€

--He was baptized in a river.

--In his youth he astounded wise men with his wisdom.

--He was tempted in the wilderness by the devil.

--He began his ministry at age 30.

--Zoroaster baptized with water, fire and “holy wind.â€

--He cast out demons and restored the sight to a blind man.

--He taught about heaven and hell, and revealed mysteries, including resurrection, judgment, salvation and the apocalypse.

--He had a sacred cup or grail.

--He was slain.

--His religion had a eucharist.

--He was the “Word made flesh.â€

--Zoroaster’s followers expected a “second coming†in the virgin-born Saoshynt or Savior, who is to come in 2341 CE and begin his ministry at age 30, ushering in a golden age.

 

Take yer fricken pick.

[Marmalade]

Koyaanisqatsi are you just quoting that video off of youtube? Because that's not all correct.

 

Yeah I don't deny there are similar accounts in religion, in many stories, not just the birth/life of Christ.

 

All being born on the 25th of December how can you prove that? I mean if you read up Kirishna you'll see he was born in the Summer. I don't deny that religions have been evolved in some cases for other societies, and that stories are similar but please, don't just add in fictional ideas to make a point. And there is no proof that Jesus was born on the 25th of December anyway so how was that relevant?

[JAStewart]

I don't even know why people consider the virgin birth anyway, because it is quite frankly ridiculous. But then, in defense of Xtianity, God doesn't necessarily not exist just because the Jesus story is a myth.

[Njugle]

"No man of woman born shall slay Macbeth".

 

And yet.....

 

Words can be mis-interpreted.

 

Religion is like technology, it is who holds it and what they do with it that forms our prejudices about it. Nurture or destroy. It is a shame that many have chosen to destroy, for ends political or financial. (Applicable to both!)

[KOYAANISQATSI]

And there is no proof that Jesus was born on the 25th of December anyway so how was that relevant?

 

There is no proof Jesus was born at all, never mind the 25th of december, you will find that has more to do with the sun than the "son"

 

are you just quoting that video off of youtube? Because that's not all correct

 

I have no idea what youtube you mean but no. I have given the subject quite a lot of research, none of which for a long time has involved sitting with head bowed in church soaking up the sheite of lunatics.

 

I do like the way you are sure some youtube has been proven wrong' while rising from the dead, raising others from the dead walking on water and a few other unverified parlour tricks from thousands of years ago makes an undeniable proof.

[Big tv]

Unity 11 days ago

 

Every single man, women and child on Earth are bound by certain truths,

we all need food and water

we all need some where to be safe

we all need love

we will all die

and we all wonder how we got here!

 

its is this last one that causes so much trouble, for in it is the power to control everything!

 

Religion was born out of our lack of understanding and is fueled by our fear that life is not special

 

early humans looked toward the Sun An entity they could not fathom but a bringer of light and warmth.

 

in an attempt to understand the Sun they stamped a lable on it...GOD They would pray to God and when God was happy crops would grow and the days would be warm and long, when God was unhappy a coldness would sweep the land!

 

Some where else another tribe of humans had started crafting boats and had learned to navigate the oceans by using the stars and the moon

unable to understand what they were they labled them Gods for they guided them through their lives!

 

Some where else.....lets say Wales

another tribe saw the balance between the Sun and the Moon, the sun would light up their days and grow their crops, while the moon and the stars would guide them at night

 

what do you think happend when these tribes met???

 

Well the first two tried to kill each other and they both thought third took drugs!!!

 

As we have grown as a race all our old gods have fallen by the wayside because we are slowly beging to make sense of existance and we dont need to give it the easy answer..."God an all powerfull being so powerful that we cant even imagine.....so stop imagining!"

 

Most bibles are guide to leading good lives, ones of resposibility and kindness, created by man, we should be proud of them and take alot of what they have to teach. but they were written when humanity was just kicking off.

 

in truth we have so much still to learn, but to be seperated by religion is retarded.

 

Religion is a device of control! i know that not all religions are the same and that alot of them are watered down but at its core religion is the last instatution of ignorance

 

The last thing i would ever want or hope for is for us all to agree and belive in the same thing.... we should find UNITY in or differences for they make us who we are we should always ask questions we should always question those answers we should never be afraid of any out come when we pause and stop askin rot sets in and the demons among us find ways to control

 

maybe we aren't unique maybe there is no God, heaven or hell, maybe we dont have souls and love is just a chemical reaction maybe not!

 

maybe we are childern of alah or the souls of an alien race trapped in human form, maybe God sent his only son to earth to die for our sins maybe not!

 

Always ask questions always question the answers!

 

 

oh yeah.......... i hate eggs!!!!

[EM]

are you just quoting that video off of youtube? Because that's not all correct

I have no idea what youtube you mean.

 

I think she refers to part of one of the various Zeitgeist films, specifically this bit. Whether or not it is all correct the general point is well accepted.

 

... rising from the dead, raising others from the dead walking on water and a few other unverified parlour tricks...

Reminds me of this .

[KOYAANISQATSI]

I think she refers to part of one of the various Zeitgeist films

 

Oh yeah, I forgot I left that lying around.

Then there's the side of the Jesus character, ripped of from some joseph or other, in the old testament.

 

Then there's this angle:

 

Jesus the Pharoah

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vkk3a8ECMrA&feature=related

 

any or even all of these, however unlikely they may look against a lifetimes imprinting, still seem about several million times more likely than what the laughable attempt the Rtards have made to convince me of as holy truth all my life.

 

take your bible for what it is; a triple coded clue to people, history and events (with a heap of outright lies) but in the name of christ almighty, get off your knees and try to use a bit of common sense and realism when you interperate these scribblings.

[Njugle]

Edit- LOL, while you were writing that.... ^

 

... rising from the dead, raising others from the dead walking on water and a few other unverified parlour tricks...

 

Also proposed as being straightforward allegory, in a time when those who left the Jewish faith were considered 'dead' to the devout and priests generally required their 'flock' to come to them, an open-minded priest who accepted this guy Lazarus back into the fold after his conversion to another faction, and went down the pier for a yarn with the fishing boys - brought back the 'dead' and 'walked on the water'.

 

Pure allegory misrepresented by the early Roman Kirk to wield power and generally misconstrued ever since, along with many other myths.

 

The resurrection has a number of colourful real world proposed explanations, too lengthy for me to try and paraphrase here.

 

In summary: Some wise, open-minded bloke, of priestly lineage, became a leader among men and changed the rules a bit. No parlour tricks there. Just history cunningly used to political and financial ends by certain factions. Notice the pope apologised for the sins of the RC's in his turn of the century speech? The truth hurts, even to an RC, if in possession of more of the facts.

 

Religion and science may be born of ignorance. History is born of motivation. Religion born of motivation is not history, nor can science be found in it. Religion born of history may contain science, once you remove the motivation. etc, etc.

 

Thought you said you'd researched the matter.