da ness tattie man Posted October 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 We can all sympathise with hat North has been through. I am not sure if that happend in Shetland or on the Mainland but the reality is it will soon be the norm in Shetland. Although the Police could do more I think they are fighting an up hill battle without the people of Shetland helping them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McFly Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 Heroin is going to kill Shetland! Has this become the "Most Hysterical Imaginary Tabloid Headline Competition" thread? I think not McFly, there are some great discussions from well informed people here. Absolutely Dr WHO. I didn't intend to criticise the general level of debate. I meant to highlight the unhelpfully melodramatic tone of that little outburst from da ness tattie man. Carry on, this is very interesting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
da ness tattie man Posted October 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 I meant to highlight the unhelpfully melodramatic tone of that little outburst from da ness tattie man. I wasn't being melodramatic. I believe that this is a statement of fact. Over the next 12 to 18 mnonths I am sure you will see a big difference in Shetland. If you speak to some of the drug councillors which I have recently done (due to a family member) They are seeing what is happening and not liking it. For evey registered user they think there are two more unregistered. That is almost 1000 heroin user's that have to fund a habit of atleast £20.00 a day. Proof of how bad it is gets continually written on this very forum. Neddish behaviour, Trouble at Ladies Drive, young suicide rates in Shetland, etc, etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostrider Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 I meant to highlight the unhelpfully melodramatic tone of that little outburst from da ness tattie man. I wasn't being melodramatic. I believe that this is a statement of fact. Over the next 12 to 18 mnonths I am sure you will see a big difference in Shetland. If you speak to some of the drug councillors which I have recently done (due to a family member) They are seeing what is happening and not liking it. For evey registered user they think there are two more unregistered. That is almost 1000 heroin user's that have to fund a habit of atleast £20.00 a day. Proof of how bad it is gets continually written on this very forum. Neddish behaviour, Trouble at Ladies Drive, young suicide rates in Shetland, etc, etc Explain your math please? The Shetland News report that was used to start this thread quotes "211 problem drug users", defined, if I read the report correctly, as the total number of people accessing "community drug services" in Shetland in the past 12 months. No substance specific data is provided, but it would seem highly unlikely all 211 are Heroin users, and even if they are/were, and even if the allegation that, "For evey registered user they think there are two more unregistered", which is purely speculative at present and which we only have your word for ever having been said by anyone, has any basis in truth, that still only gives a maximum number of users of 633. Where does the "almost 1000 Heroin users come from". Facts and rational debate are informative and helpful, exaggerations, sensationalism and scaremongering will destroy any and all credibility of the point(s) put across. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Njugle Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 The hardest of debates is that in which both sides are correct in their opinions and i think that is the case here. Heroin is killing certain traditional aspects of Shetland, whilst a utopian de-criminalized state may well be a long term answer. Not an easily achievable one however. So how does society bridge the gap between the two? Provide free medicinal heroin to addicts who agree to name dealers? Further de-criminalize class b/c drugs in Scotland/locally so they can regain their prevalence prior to the upsurge in heroin abuse, as mentioned in the Shetland News article? Expel convicted dealers from the islands after imprisonment? Any ideas, other than the 'suspect thy your neighbour' extreme possibility already mentioned? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fjool Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 So how does society bridge the gap between the two? It must start with honest and reliable education. Enough of the scaremongering and media-driven hysteria; it is simply not helpful. Propoganda and untruths are only fuelling the problem. People will make their own minds up and, if you lie to them, you only give them reason to ignore your arguments - however well meaning they are. Our current educational policy and drug laws attempt to scare our children away from drugs entirely, yet society encourages them to drink. This disconnect immediately sows uncertainties. Further, the inconsitencies within the drug laws themselves cause problems: "They said cannabis was evil, but I know it's not actually as bad as that. That must mean they were lying about heroin too." If we spent as much time being open and honest on the subject as we did funding ridiculous drug-sniffing dog projects and snitching on each other, then we'd have a much better basis for resolving some of the problems we are seeing. Misinformation is a terrible way to help children with this subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twerto Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 I think where education goes wrong is by saying "Drugs are Bad" without following that up with any reasons. No teenager that it starting out in life and finding their own footsteps in life will believe it if it is not backed up. The truth is that no drug is bad when used properly.. what should be taught is "Misuse of Drugs is Bad".. but a far as I was taught by my parents and those around me.. that goes fro everything in life.. misuse anything and it will do you harm.. from machinery.. to doing to much sport to eating to much to drinking to much to farting to much to "insert any action here" to much. Heroin when used right.. I'm sure anyone that is lying in a hospital after an accident and is on a morphine drip to ease the pain is thankful of it.. Used wrong it will destroy life's even kill... Alcohol again used right.. can help numb pain but i wouldnt be relying on it in this day and age to numb the pain after an operation. used wrong it can ruin lives and even kill. Sport used right will help ppl live longer used wrong it will cuase you great pain and could contribute to death. Food used right will help live longer used wrong will lead to pain and possably death... Everything in there moderation is one fo the best quotes of life to be adheard too in my honest opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mag Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 A guest posted the following on the thread on Dogs against Drugs: I've heard 'on the grapevine' the the sniffer dogs actually encourage the smuggling of hard drugs. Cannabis, the most commonly used drug in Shetland (and relatively harmless, depending on what research you read) is of relatively low value, very bulky and has a strong odour, making it easy for dogs to sniff out. Therefore an unnattrative option for the dealers. Powdered drugs, such as heroin, are high value, low bulk and relatively odourless, making it very difficult for the dogs to sniff out. Therefore a very attractive option for dealers. As far as I'm aware, the dogs have done nothing to stop the creeping spread of heroin use in Shetland. [/i] Does anyone know whether this is correct?I'm sure the last thing the Dogs against Drugs campaign wanted was to push people from cannabis use towards heroin use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Inky Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 Does anyone know whether this is correct?I'm sure the last thing the Dogs against Drugs campaign wanted was to push people from cannabis use towards heroin use. As I understand it, there is no great shortage of cannabis in Shetland, so perhaps your fears are misplaced ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostrider Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 Does anyone know whether this is correct?I'm sure the last thing the Dogs against Drugs campaign wanted was to push people from cannabis use towards heroin use. As I understand it, there is no great shortage of cannabis in Shetland, so perhaps your fears are misplaced ? That said, anyone wanting to minimise their chances of being hauled in, is going to see the more difficult to detect substances as the more attractive option. It's like anything else, when the rules of the game chage, players adapt their game to minimise the impact of those changes. On the ground in the big picture of things, there probably isn't any great changes afoot, but anything that encourages even a few people to choose more potent substances, or to choose them more quickly than they might otherwise, can hardly be considered helping in the "fight" against drug misuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Njugle Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 Does anyone know whether this is correct?I'm sure the last thing the Dogs against Drugs campaign wanted was to push people from cannabis use towards heroin use. As I understand it, there is no great shortage of cannabis in Shetland, so perhaps your fears are misplaced ? The truer measure of that would be in price as much as availability? How has that changed? Not just in Shetland either, but nationally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junior Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 That said, anyone wanting to minimise their chances of being hauled in, is going to see the more difficult to detect substances as the more attractive option. From my experience this is just not how it works. If someone wants a substance (to sell or use) then that is the substance they get. The exception is if addiction has kicked in, at which point users generally just want to get f*cked-up on anything thats going. Dealers (at "street" level or not much higher) are not in it for the money, they are in it because they are users themselves. Its not a case of risk versus return. The original statement might have come from something that happend post 60's (ish) with cannabis. Previously importers had imported herbal marijuana, but the processed cannabis resin was a more compact substance which made it harder to detect and so that became the norm. There is one other definite myth from the original Shetland News artical that I think needs put to rest. One of the drugs team states "that it had become apparent that younger people in the isles are being targeted by dealers.". Dealers making a concerted effort to sell something just doesn't happen. There is a huge demand for illegal drugs, people like the effect that they have on them. The demand is greater than the supply, be that through addiction or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostrider Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 That said, anyone wanting to minimise their chances of being hauled in, is going to see the more difficult to detect substances as the more attractive option. From my experience this is just not how it works. If someone wants a substance (to sell or use) then that is the substance they get. The exception is if addiction has kicked in, at which point users generally just want to get f*cked-up on anything thats going. Dealers (at "street" level or not much higher) are not in it for the money, they are in it because they are users themselves. Its not a case of risk versus return. My comment was made from a purely personal perspective, if I were to choose to use or deal tomorrow, I would be looking very favourably on options which minimised my chances of being hassled by an amateur with an over-enthusuastic pooch, and/or spending time staring out the back side of a cell door. But that's just me, and I take your point concerning the prevalent attitude among current users, it's not my scene, so I wouldn't know. Such an attitude amongst users though definitely reinforces the belief that few if any of them give a damn that there is anything illegal about it all, or of the consequences of being caught/done for it. In fact it could be said that the chances of being caught/done are so slight and/or ineffectual that they are worthless, and we are actually living with a free for all as I said earlier, any pretence of it being "banned" is but lip service and a farce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Styumpie Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 Dealers making a concerted effort to sell something just doesn't happen. There is a huge demand for illegal drugs, people like the effect that they have on them. The demand is greater than the supply, be that through addiction or not. This pretty much hits the nail square on the head, I've been giving this subject some thought, and I think the legalisation of drugs seems like the only right thing to do. If drugs were legalised, I think harder drugs like Heroin, coke, crack etc should only be allowed to be sold to people after they have had a chat about the risks from the seller, which in turn must be authorised to sell and be trained in the matter to give good honest professional advice. Legalising drugs would certainly make them a hell of a lot less risky, Take cannabis for example, the resin that you get up here is generally poor quality soap bar, it's made using all kinds of crap, even used engine oil, plastics etc, not what you want to be inhaling! High quality marijuana, like what you can buy in the coffee shops in Amsterdam, or which you can grow yourself is much much safer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fjool Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 If someone wants a substance (to sell or use) then that is the substance they get. Market forces still apply however; if something is more difficult to acquire, its rarity and therefore price goes up. If the price of a user's preferred 'tipple' gets too much then they may be inclined to try something else, just the once. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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