Climate Change & Global Warming

[KOYAANISQATSI]

No offence meant to his person any more than offence was meant to mine I'm sure when Malachy wanders off topic to conjur mudballs made of lies in his little ad hominen.

 

His true identity means as much to me as any username he may care to adopt.

[trout]

^^ Now, truth does have many faces and many angles

 

Let me reiterate - "Keep this clean. All parties"

[Carlos]

Seriously though I don't get why the default position seems to be anti-windfarm and pro-climate change denial and every other opinion is deemed to be part of a massive conspiracy led by VE and Al Gore et al driven by their evil desire for world domination.

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/bbing/stories/s1359701.htm

 

Anna Hipsley: A conspiracy theorist believes that nothing happens by accident and there is some order and reason to random events. However disturbing the conspiracy itself may be, the idea that there is some method to the world’s madness is quite appealing.

 

Alasdair Spark: There’s maybe only one thing worse than believing that somebody is in charge of everything, is believing that nobody is in charge of anything. And probably since the end of the Cold War, we live in a world in which we feel that we’re rushing pell-mell into the future; we can’t really chart what’s going to happen, unexpected things happen at every turn of events, so conspiracy theory maybe provides us with a very comforting sense that somehow, somewhere, somebody is at least in charge of things.

 

[KOYAANISQATSI]

A conspiracy theorist believes that nothing happens by accident and there is some order and reason to random events.

 

That's a bit of a stretch.

Are you saying any idea to cut carbon emissions and increase taxes, has just manifested by itself out of nowhere.

 

If however you mean that global warming itself is just falling from the sky; you may be closer to the truth than you think.

[Gibber]

Indeed, it's great to read posts in which the views are based on scientific research rather than just taken wholesale from far rightwing and conspiracy theory websites.

 

That hits the nail on the head.

 

I don't know if man is changing the climate but it stands to reason that if you pollute an environment like the Thames or the Hudson the fish die. Pollute the atmosphere and its well within reason that we die. If climate change is held in regard by a number of scientists it seems common sense to take preventative measures even if it is just in case.

 

It also makes sense to take right wing agendas and conspiracy theories with a pinch of salt at all times.

[Carlos]

quoting - A conspiracy theorist believes that nothing happens by accident and there is some order and reason to random events.

That's a bit of a stretch.

Are you saying any idea to cut carbon emissions and increase taxes, has just manifested by itself out of nowhere.

Taxing and cut CO2 could be

 

- Necessary and effective

- Necessary but ineffective

- Unnecessary because of incomplete understanding of the climate science

- Unnecessary because the whole idea is an orchestrated conspiracy

 

None of those are coming out of nowhere, but the discussion I quoted suggested a reason why some people might prefer to attribute conspiracy, and however widely that may or may not apply I think you have to give it some weight as we seem to be generally pre-disposed to "believe", whether it's religion, or conspiracy, in some world view that lets us think "it's all part of a bigger plan".

Of course you could make the same point for blindly following science

[Gibber]

Conspiracy theories are religion for those who think they are too advanced to believe something so simplistic as god made everything, god loves everyone. Replacing it with more nonsense but more complicated nonsense is what conspiracy theorists love to do because it sort of sounds like science, without actually having to learn any.

 

Of course you could make the same point for blindly following science

 

Which is of course different to following evidence based science.

[Malachy]

Oh Malachy, don't get all butthurt just cause your knowledge is on a par with your nonexistent musical talents.

 

Hmm, every so often I am reminded why most people here don't use their own names.

[KOYAANISQATSI]

the discussion I quoted suggested a reason why some people might prefer to attribute conspiracy

 

It depends I suppose on how much each individual thinks they have been told about any political agenda and the reasons for it.

 

Did anybody believe Edwina Curry when she said that eggs would kill us?

 

Did you trust Blair when he said weapons of mass destruction would be found in Iraq or did you think he was lying through his shiny teeth?

 

Did you think Henry Kissinger saying the Gaza crisis was a good opportunity for a new world order had any deeper implications outside of the region?

 

What about when Bill Clinton, George Bush snr, Tony Blair, Gordon Brown etc, etc, etc give speeches about the coming New World Order. Is it just a media soundbyte or something they are trying to implement using methods that may include some covert operations and manipulations not released to the general public.

 

Do you think if a woman on a plane has on plastic handcuffs and the plane hits a building, destroying both; that her severed hands will land on the top of another building, still wearing the plastic handcuffs as proof that there were kidnappers on board the plane.

 

Do you think Iran will attempt to set of nukes to prove how tough it is?

 

Did you think I was peeping out from a madmans "comfort zone" when I said at the first mention of swine flu, that we were being led to a state of emergency and a mass vaccination programme for hugh profit?

 

Do you still think empty nothingness can get bent by things being in it?

 

Do you think life is some weird accident, or just another part of an ongoing inevitable and unknown process in between the exchange of matter and energy?

 

I have the greatest respect for science, just not the same ideas about it on certain matters.

 

I have no system of belief; I don't believe in them.

Better to entertain an idea than accept it with all your heart.

I never thought of myself as any kind of conspiracy theorist, until I was called it here; I just thought I was mostly stating the bloody obvious.

 

It may just be the case that Attempting any sort of meaningful dialogue with people who are thoroughly inebriated, completely insane or deeply hypnotized, is like to trying to teach a pig to sing; you will only waste your time and annoy the pig.

 

Of course who plays the part of the pig is for the individual to ascertain.

[KOYAANISQATSI]

Hmm, every so often I am reminded why most people here don't use their own names.

 

Just winding you up Malachy; pay no heed.

In all truth, I've never heard you play.

EVER.

[Carlos]

The problem with "conspiracy" as a general concept is that there is always another possible layer.

 

"UFOs are real and it's covered up by government" could be layer 1, but if you accept that, then layer 2 is just as plausible - "The idea that "UFOs are real and it's covered up by government" is a government conspiracy to cover up something else".....

 

Easier to stick with - “Never ascribe to malice that which can adequately be explained by incompetence†- it's just people underestimate the amount of incompetence that's about......

[Gibber]

I have no system of belief

 

You're right, racism, paranoia and ignorance are more psychological flaws than a coherant theoretical framework.

 

If climate change is manmade, doesn't it bode well for the possibility of terraforming another planet?

[KOYAANISQATSI]

The problem with "conspiracy" as a general concept is that there is always another possible layer.

 

"UFOs are real and it's covered up by government" could be layer 1, but if you accept that, then layer 2 is just as plausible - "The idea that "UFOs are real and it's covered up by government" is a government conspiracy to cover up something else".....

 

I don't see why it's a problem musing on it.

I'd say other life being out there is a pretty sure thing.

That any ever got here (being that I think the universe is infinite and ageless) is still a long shot but I have no idea of the true odds of such a thing.

 

I'd bet 50 squid that the governments black ops have tried their damndest to get their own saucers up and flying using the same idea as them gravity lifters but with some kind of contained magnetic fluid instead of just ionised air but then I'm a dumb sh*t on any kind of tech.

 

That any body ever touched an alien craft; I doubt it. I put most sightings down to plasma Phenomena and lying but again, I have no idea.

 

I do think that there is a lot more going on in the ancient world than we are being told but to figure out what, is a real bitch

 

On those points, over all; I dunno LOL.

Damned if I'm gonna swallow all the given truths anymore though.

[KOYAANISQATSI]

Please excuse off topic posting. I felt that having the label "conspiracy theorist" thrown at me continually as a method of derailing any points I make of almost any kind; that I should roughly explain my position.

[falkner]

Bells should be ringing

 

Yes well ding dong, think grudgingly that you may have a point.

Global warming is such a massive issue that we have to try to work out what's true and what's a lie and the only way to do that is to keep on discussing it. I get alarmed by the urgency of it all and start to think that debate between entrenched positions wastes time that we don't have but that statement from Greenpeace makes me wince. Debate is the only way forward because we can only get at the truth by listening to everyone with an open mind and not getting bogged down in our own agendas and point scoring. I don't find that easy, but I do believe it's what we have to do. It shouldn't be about one side or the other being "right" but about collectively working forward to a new and much better understanding of the planet and of ourselves.