Climate Change & Global Warming

[KOYAANISQATSI]

The one thing we know for sure, is that any information we can gain on any previous climate change, would clearly show that it was not man made.

Nice straw man there, Koy. And now you'll be telling us that because forest fires can be caused by lightning, it's impossible for one to be started by arson?

 

I was not using it to say that because of what we know it disproves the other but was just using it alongside looking at the claim that because someone gets the title climate expert; that this somehow equates to climate change expert, which is not included in their experience and the factors involved which may well be outside of their expertise.

[ArabiaTerra]

^^^ Fair enough. The point I would make about studying past climate change is that while we know it was not caused by man, it can help give us a better idea about the kinds of change that we can expect to see from this current round of climate change which we know is caused by man.

 

For instance, the Copenhagen conference came to the (non-binding) conclusion that it would be a good idea to try to limit the current rise to 2 degrees C. Now, looking into the history of past climate change, we can find a time where the average temperature was 2 degrees C above current temperatures.

 

One of the things we find when we do this is that the ice caps were much smaller than they are now and sea level was around 6-7 metres higher.

 

This sea level rise won't happen soon, it will probably take centuries, but it will happen if the climate is stabilised at 2 degrees warmer.

 

On the other hand, if we don't succeed at limiting the temperature rise to 2 degrees, then the eventual total sea level rise will be much higher and happen much faster. One thing we have learned from study of past climates is that the ice sheets are very sensitive to any sustained change in temperature.

 

What is clear though, is that whether we succeed or fail at this will be decided by us, here and now. What we do or don't do regarding climate change will affect the climate of the world for centuries, if not millennia to come. It's up to us.

[ArabiaTerra]

More on "Lord" Monkey:

 

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2008/07/once-more-unto-the-bray/

 

http://www.altenergyaction.org/Monckton.html

 

And the best one of the lot:

 

http://www.stthomas.edu/engineering/jpabraham/

[Gibber]

It is hardly an exact science yet.

 

hence

 

This argument of yours only works if you regard climatology as false

 

but I'm sure you will still rush to a climatologist's evidence if he is pro non-man made climate change.

 

A cat owner may be called an expert on their cat but if it bursts into flames one day, that doesn't mean that they automatically know why.

 

I think you'll find a vet or a biologist or somesuch would be regarded as an expert in the case of cats. If there is a change to a cat's normal processes like an illness or a different physical process (lets not say "bursts into flames" because its misleading and there are indeed experts who know why stuff combusts) these people will know why. If they don't they are the people most qualified to find out even if the change has never been seen before because the change can be seen and accounted for (or most likely accounted for by these people) against a background of prior cat knowledge.

 

Yes and no; it doesn't make them less of an expert but if they choose only one perspective to view the anomaly and it is incorrect, then all you get is a lot of wasted time and money.

 

Yes that would be wrong, is does sound awfully similar to your what your doing without having been an expert to begin with.

[skaterboy]

What is clear though, is that whether we succeed or fail at this will be decided by us, here and now. What we do or don't do regarding climate change will affect the climate of the world for centuries, if not millennia to come. It's up to us

 

If you are right and I'm not saying you are, then surely it is not up to US but the Chinese and Indians, and as they are continuing to build coal power stations at a rate of 1 to 2 a week then anything WE do is just a fart in the wind but at a huge cost not just financially but at a huge cost in scientific progress that will in the end screw us all no matter what the climate does or doesn't do.

 

we can not afford to fanny around trying to prevent something that is beyond our control.

 

So why bother?

[KOYAANISQATSI]

 

Yes and no; it doesn't make them less of an expert but if they choose only one perspective to view the anomaly and it is incorrect, then all you get is a lot of wasted time and money.

 

Yes that would be wrong, is does sound awfully similar to your what your doing without having been an expert to begin with.

 

Not similar at all really. When this thread began, I was still a believer in AGW; it was my growing interest in plasma cosmology and how well its theories relate to observations that in the end led me away from the fold.

The strength of a theory can be shown in its ability to predict and the likes of Wallace Thornhill are having a field day in seeing their predictions come true, only to be totally ignored by all mainsteam scientific publications.

Now you may well be right that I am not an expert in either climate, relativity mathmatics or even plasma cosmology but after catching a youtube entitled H.A.A.R.P shooting at UFO...

 

 

With a still very limited understanding of the electric universe it was nevertheless clear to me, that this had less to do with HAARP and ufo's and more to do with the Earths plasma sheath repelling incoming space debris and following it up with a plasma discharge. This got me thinking that if that's how it can play out on earth; then there must be far greater reaction to things like so called comets when they get to close to the Sun so with no prior knowledge about such a thing ever being seen, I went for a google through mainstream pages, using words like Sun, comets & coronal mass ejection; which was the type of thing I was expecting to find and the funny thing is, I did; again and again and again, while the experts as you would call them, said and I quote "A spectacular coincidence - We were speechless when we saw this".

When it comes down to an idiot on a pc, like me, beating NASA at their own game, then perhaps it is time for everyone to start to wonder if something is indeed amiss in the ruling paradigms.

 

The same of course goes for any climate change; the effect that the Sun has on driving both weather and climate, can in no way be discounted by any mainstream expert, if they have completely failed to understand the Sun as an electrical phenomenon and the interactions it has with its planetary bodies.

 

I'm sure you will still rush to a climatologist's evidence if he is pro non-man made climate change.

 

Again, not really. For instance; Habibullo Abdussamatov, the head of space research at St. Petersburg's Pulkovo Astronomical Observatory in Russia, says that we're heading for a new "Little Ice Age" in 2014.

 

Abdussamatov's research amounts to a sharp rebuke of climate scientists who believe human-generated carbon dioxide is responsible for causing catastrophic global warming, issuing instead a news flash announcing "Sun Heats Earth!"

 

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=155225

 

I have no idea if he is correct or not so I wouldn't say I'm rushing to him in any way, although he is at least pointing his theory in the right direction by saying that Sun activity determines temperatures.

 

A vet or a biologist is indeed a better expert in the case of cats, rather than just a cat owner. (except the cat owner I had imagined was both a biologist and a vet) but if you want experts who know why the big stuff out there combusts then sooner or later you will have to look to those who can see an electric Universe for the eternally unified field it is.

[Gibber]

Cats rock.

[KOYAANISQATSI]

Cats rock.

 

Not when they're trying cupid stunts before my window all day and night.

[Gorgonzola Butt-cheese]

Arabia Terra's latest words --"This sea level rise won't happen soon, it will probably take centuries"

 

Not long ago you were throwing 10 metre sea level rises in the next 60 years.

 

What ever you make of Lord Monkton, I put it to you that you are just the other side of the spectrum from him.

 

I used to have a slight hope this co2/ warming argument might help slow down our fossil fuel and energy use. It has failed in that totally and now countries around the globe are all starting to drop it, another couple of colder winters will see it dead and buried.

Oh and by the way, where is this record breakinly warm summer you were predicting?

[Gorgonzola Butt-cheese]

I have heard there is now a movement started to place Lord Monkton in charge of the con-lib environmental policy.

Thats really good news,

All we need now is for stuart hill to gain control of an autonomous shetland isles.

The revolution has begun!!

[ArabiaTerra]

Arabia Terra's latest words --"This sea level rise won't happen soon, it will probably take centuries"

 

And the quotemining award for May 2010 goes to Gorgo.

 

I said:

This sea level rise won't happen soon, it will probably take centuries, but it will happen if the climate is stabilised at 2 degrees warmer.

 

On the other hand, if we don't succeed at limiting the temperature rise to 2 degrees, then the eventual total sea level rise will be much higher and happen much faster. One thing we have learned from study of past climates is that the ice sheets are very sensitive to any sustained change in temperature.

But again you show you can't make a contribution to this debate without lying, this time by omission.

 

Edit: Have you checked out the Monkton links I posted, Gorgo? Do you still think this idiot has any credibility?

[Snaz]

Butt-cheese,

 

I find it laughable your admiration for Mr Monckton. The guy is a joke who has had no scientific training - see my previous post.

 

Not doing yourself any favours here Butt-cheese.

[Gorgonzola Butt-cheese]

HEey whats all this shooting monkton doon aboot???!!!

He is the eccentric champ of the common sense movement, I know you brainwizzened types dont rate him and he is purveying common sense to the masses and consistently succedding and winning at that very well indeed , where as you alarmists are losing big time with the " oh but what if 2 degrees nonsense", nobodies listening to that wornout clap trap anymore

The lefty warming alarmist cabbage munching/ belchers are about to spin down the anus of history like a whirling dervish, on this co2 rubbish and the sooner the better as it is a huge and expensive distraction against real environmental issues- de-forestation, habitat destruction ,overpopulation and huge amount of toxic chemicals being either dumped at sea or finding its way into the land based food chain.

I have wrote to monkton and invited him to Shetland and do a speech, he is a brave new visionary and I think the old bulge eyed viscount would be a great addition alongside captain stuart hill.

This could be the start of a new golden age for shetland today the world tommorow.

Three cheer for lord monkton and shetlands future under El Presidentee

Admiral Hill.!!!

 

I also popose setting up re-education camps run by our very own styles to treat the most far gone global warming delusionists, perfectly humane of course, just plenty of electric shock therapy produced of course by a wind generator .

[Gorgonzola Butt-cheese]

http://www.seafriends.org.nz/issues/global/acid.htm#intro

 

 

Another one above to thwart the hell bent on co2 doommongers.

[Gorgonzola Butt-cheese]

from the above post:-

 

Nothing in the sea works as expected:

its physics, chemistry, biochemistry, physiology, biology and ecology do not work as thought;

truth is often opposite to intuition.

The sea is weirder than we can possibly imagine.

To learn about the sea, forget what you were taught at school, open your mind and begin from scratch.

 

It is an important message that I want you to take home and keep in the back of your mind whenever you read about marine science or planet science. It is a message for scientists too.

 

 

Dead planet thinking: most oceanographers, physicists, chemists treat the planet as a dead planet, where every force, every process can be described and captured in an equation, and then simulated by a computer. But life frustrates every attempt, as it corrupts equations, while also adapting to changing circumstances. Of all these, the sea is the worst with its unimaginable scale, complexity and influence. We may never be able to unravel the secrets of the sea.