Climate Change & Global Warming

[crofter]

 

Actually the most potent greenhouse gas is in fact water vapour

There is more CO2 in the atmosphere and it stays in the atmosphere for much longer, therefore it is the most powerful forcing agent. Water vapour is a feedback, not a forcing agent. Please do me the courtesy of learning the difference, it's rather an important one.

 

Although water vapour in the atmosphere varies, I think you are incorrect to claim more CO2 than water vapour. If you are going to get all sarcastic, you should at least try to get your facts right.

 

Water vapour is most important, according to this:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_gas

 

The contribution to the greenhouse effect by a gas is affected by both the characteristics of the gas and its abundance. For example, on a molecule-for-molecule basis methane is about eight times stronger greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide[6], but it is present in much smaller concentrations so that its total contribution is smaller. When these gases are ranked by their contribution to the greenhouse effect, the most important are:[7]water vapor, which contributes 36–72%carbon dioxide, which contributes 9–26%methane, which contributes 4–9%ozone, which contributes 3–7%

[ArabiaTerra]

^^^^ Please read what I write. I said CO2 was the most important forcing agent, not the most abundant greenhouse gas (if you call water vapour a gas).

 

Water vapour is a feedback, not a forcing agent (for about the ninth time). If you don't know the difference, then please make the effort to find out as it is important. If you don't understand this difference then you are not understanding a critical part of AGW theory.

[Greenfingers]

^^^^ Please read what I write. I said CO2 was the most important forcing agent, not the most abundant greenhouse gas (if you call water vapour a gas).

 

What you said was

 

GT";p="140621 wrote:

 

rona wrote:

Quote:

CO2 is the most powerful climate forcing agent affecting the atmosphere,

 

 

I think you will find that methane is a far more powerful climate forcing agent AT.

 

du will hae ta stop havering shiite lad

 

 

Actually the most potent greenhouse gas is in fact water vapour

 

There is more CO2 in the atmosphere(my emphasis) and it stays in the atmosphere for much longer, therefore it is the most powerful forcing agent. Water vapour is a feedback, not a forcing agent.

 

Seems pretty obvious to me what you are really saying.

 

Water vapour is a feedback, not a forcing agent (for about the ninth time). If you don't know the difference, then please make the effort to find out as it is important. If you don't understand this difference then you are not understanding a critical part of AGW theory.

 

Why not give us some links to help us understand.

 

You do for everything else.

[GT]

One of the biggest contributors to man-made climate change is amateurs like AT who spend most of their time on Google reading things they barely understand then argumentum ad nauseam on forums like Shetlink. Each couple of words search by AT releases the same amount of CO2 as boiling a kettle of water so I guess he/she has to be Shetland’s greatest contributor to Global Warming.

 

I worked as a professional climatologist and meteorologist for thirty odd years and believe me water vapour is indeed a gas and is a variable component of the hydrological cycle. Without water vapour we would loose about 70% of the so called greenhouse effect, sure it gets involved in feedback loops but those are not the primary function.

 

Atmospheric CO2 is also from a natural cycle and also gets involved in feedback loops but also not its primary function. There is also a man made component of CO2 in the atmosphere and that is the bit AT gets excited about. He should know that when my ex-colleagues model climate change they include methane as part of the CO2 figure by using a CO2 equivalent for methane.

 

It is really clear looking at some of the posts that AT has little understanding of thermodynamics and atmospheric forcing and measurable and variable forcing agents – but hey, life is too short to try to enlighten and so long as he/she’s happy.........

[KOYAANISQATSI]

^InThisThread, AT Pwned.

[Carlos]

Hello GT, I hope that you will find time to give some input on keeping the science straight, as I feel that's something that is hard to do - mainstream media not reporting enough detail to know what's going on, and extreme views leading the viewing figures on the net.

 

If I could throw in a local question that interests me - From Met Office figures annual rainfall in Shetland has gone up 25% since records started (about 1930 was it?).

Any accepted opinion on that in professional circles? How widespread is that change, how does it fit in longer term cycles (if any) and what changes have actually happened in rainfall patterns - more rainy days, or more intense rainfall events, seasonal changes?

[ArabiaTerra]

I worked as a professional climatologist and meteorologist for thirty odd years and believe me water vapour is indeed a gas and is a variable component of the hydrological cycle.

Definition

vapour noun (GAS)

UK (US vapor)

[C or U] gas or extremely small drops of liquid which result from the heating of a liquid or solid

 

 

Well I guess the dictionary beats me then. I always thought the gaseous form of water was steam whereas vapour was small droplets of liquid suspended in a gaseous medium. Oh well, live and learn.

 

Definition

steam noun

the hot gas that is produced when water boils

 

Hmm. Both right then.

Without water vapour we would loose about 70% of the so called greenhouse effect, sure it gets involved in feedback loops but those are not the primary function.

I've never disputed that water vapour has a greenhouse effect. What I am disputing is that it is a climate forcing agent involved in the current global warming. Water vapour acts as a feedback. It varies depending on the temperature and it varies in real time. This makes it a feedback. Temperature goes up, water vapour content goes up, temperature goes down, water vapour content goes down.

Atmospheric CO2 is also from a natural cycle and also gets involved in feedback loops but also not its primary function. There is also a man made component of CO2 in the atmosphere

Yes, about 40%. The difference being that CO2 hangs around in the atmosphere for centuries trapping heat and forcing up the temperature.

... and that is the bit AT gets excited about. He should know that when my ex-colleagues model climate change they include methane as part of the CO2 figure by using a CO2 equivalent for methane.

Yes, CO2 equivalents explained here. It basically works out as the same as the measured CO2 level, so your point is...?

It is really clear looking at some of the posts that AT has little understanding of thermodynamics and atmospheric forcing and measurable and variable forcing agents – but hey, life is too short to try to enlighten and so long as he/she’s happy.........

No, go on, enlighten me. It would be nice to have a debate about the science for a change, instead of the politics.

 

But what's all this "those are not the primary function" nonsense? Since when did gases in the atmosphere have a function? Function implies purpose. Greenhouse gasses have effects, not functions.

[ArabiaTerra]

Edit: post removed, no need to slump to the trolls level.

[Guest Anonymous]

^^^^ yay , when you're beat you're beat , suffered da sam mony a time

[Gorgonzola Butt-cheese]

There could be 5000 parts per million co2 and it would still be a trace gas , its not currently getting warmer its been the coldest winter for a long time over huge areas of the northern hemisphere .

I wonder how many colder winters will be required to classify as climate change?

[Gorgonzola Butt-cheese]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/5008818.stm

 

This is great , I love avacadoes!

But likely this winters hard frost winna have done them any good?

[paulb]

were there grapes in greenland a thousand years ago.

[Malachy]

were there grapes in greenland a thousand years ago.

No there weren't. There were probably grapes in Vinland, given the name, but no one is exactly sure where that is. Maybe Newfoundland, maybe a bit further south. Grapes did not grow in Greenland.

[DamnSaxon]

Cheers for the links, AT. I've bookmarked them and will pass them on to my pal for his scrutiny.

[crofter]

It is known as a trace gas because the atmosphere is mostly nitrogen and oxygen, about 99% I think. The remaining gases which make up 1% of the atmosphere include CO2 (roughly 400ppm or 0.04%) - a "trace"

 

You say CO2 has increased by 40%. Sounds very alarming. What is the increase in ppm though? 100ppm maybe? An increase of 0.01%. Modest?

If you think 40% is modest, you can pay me 40% of your salary

 

Well, you must have heard that there is money in crofting these days - last year I did well and managed to earn 13K, so let's say that is the total of all atmospheric gases. If CO2 has increased by 100ppm, that means I owe you 1 pound 30 pence. But wait - It has taken 100 odd years for this increase to happen, so I suppose I would pay you at 1.3 pence per year, just over a tenth of a penny per month. Yes, I think that is quite modest.