Mareel - Cinema & Music Venue

[Talpa]

It would be unprofessional of them to look at an app and say 'oh the SIC are involved, better not waste our time looking at that form' if you see what i mean.

 

I do see what you mean. But perhaps it would also be unprofessional of them not to ask - are we dealing with a reliable funding partner here? Can we commit our (public) money and be sure any SIC commitment will be honoured? Will there be costly delays as they 'review' a project weeks before it is due to start? Infact it would be irresponsible of them not to at least consider this a risk, if, it has happened before.

 

Maybe it has? Any precedent on this scale? Think it could be a big story? Shetland culture very in public eye with Museum & Archives sucesses. Hmmmmm......What would the headline be if they pull out?

 

For sure, the SIC have the right to change their minds - but at this stage??? Ooochaaaa....

 

Was careful to use 'could' effect rather than 'would' effect but it's surely a very undesirable consequence if it is one. And it is one that's already been voiced, in the Toon Hall no-less - as JAS says.

[spencey7]

But when the balance sheet arrived, my only feelings were, "This is pure nonsense, and if this is, just how much of the rest of this plan is likewise?"

With the greatest respect Ghostrider, the Mareel proposals have stood up to various feasibility studies and attracted funding from the Scottish Arts Council, Highlands and Islands Enterprise and the European Regional Development Fund. If there was anything greatly "amiss" I'm fairly sure it would have been spotted by this (very) late stage.

 

I think it's shameful that Council members didn't familiarise themselves fully with the business plan in advance of the meeting last Wednesday (just go along Shetland Arts and discuss it!). I am now fearful of death by delay.

 

As for this nonsense that keeps coming up about the Clickimin - live music simply sounds bad in there. I remember dicussing the poor acoustics at a big folk festival gig a couple of years ago, when someone near our conversation turned round to inform us that "there's no reason whatsoever why this gig couldn't have been held upstairs in the Wheel Bar". What can you say when you're dealing with that mentality??

[Ghostrider]

But when the balance sheet arrived, my only feelings were, "This is pure nonsense, and if this is, just how much of the rest of this plan is likewise?"

With the greatest respect Ghostrider, the Mareel proposals have stood up to various feasibility studies and attracted funding from the Scottish Arts Council, Highlands and Islands Enterprise and the European Regional Development Fund. If there was anything greatly "amiss" I'm fairly sure it would have been spotted by this (very) late stage.

 

I appreciate that, and I intended no disrespect to those bodies. However, neither Scottish Arts or Europe have a great deal of knowledge and experience of how it is "on the ground" in Shetland, HIE are marginally better in having a local presence, but nevertheless can only see and appreciate so much of the story. These people obviously did not feel the figures, as presented, and based on their "experience and knowledge", which may or may not have been particularly relevant or appropriate to the decision they were being asked to make, wasn't so far out of line that they refused it out of hand.

 

Now, that's fine and well, but I've lived here all my life, I've seen a cinema operated under more than one ownership, struggle badly, and close, I've seen a number of venues open, operate under a number of owners, and as many close down, in most cases, not all that long after opening. Yes, I appreciate the capital costs of this are not a factor in profitability, and I appreciate it does not necessarily have to turn a profit, unlike previous incarnations, where return on investment had to have been a significant factor in their existance.

 

Even so, when I look at the potential income streams Mareel can expect to have available, against the known overheads of a building of that size and functionality, I just cannot see how the two can meet in the middle. I appreciate too that times change and with them trends, and Mareel may prove a far stronger magnet than any of it's forerunners, but I don't fancy relying on that occuring to make it break even.

[Guest Anonymous]

^^^^Wise up Spencey

If you hear crap sound, then 9 times out of 10 it is because the band set up their equipment wrong for the venue.

I've been in this situation, both as an audience member, and as a performer (well trying to be), and I can assure you that acoustics can vary greatly for very many different reasons.

I continue to comment that sports venues sound better, and that from experience, is because they do. The more open a venue is, the less likely it is to be affected by the audience. Whereas a very small venue like the Oslo Konserthus (1st May), seating 1500, produced a shocking acoustical nightmare for the sound engineers once the audience was seated (It took them several minutes to balance). In contrast, a sodding big ice hockey stadium at Hamar the next night (5000 audience), produced crystal clear acoustics, you could hear a pin drop between notes, and the feeling of being in the same room as the performer was amazing.

These performances being from a band which always carries their own sound equipment, so you can knock any equipment variations out of the equation.

My point being. If the Oslo Konserthus, purpose built venue, has crap acoustics. What will be different about Mareel?

Clickimin may have crap acoustics, or it may not, has it ever hosted a gig where the sound engineers were hardened professionals? And I'm talking 40 plus years experience. I think not.

I've never been to any gig in Shetland where I could hear the lyrics. Whereas, I've attended many gigs, mostly in sports venues, where I could not only hear the lyrics, but hear them clearly enough to write them down, check them when I got home, and find that my hearing is still perfect.

 

I'm afraid that the more you argue in favour of Mareel, the more points you raise against it, in the minds of people who take the ultimate quality of music really seriously. I like a lot of the music currently being produced in Shetland, but if the bands producing that music would realise that building a venue to make them, hopefully, sound good, instead of working on sounding good in any venue, is the wrong way to go. Then perhaps Shetland will have a truly international music export potential.

[Gifford]

Of all the counter arguments against Mareel, the one where sport centres produce a better sound anyway is got to be the weakest of the lot. 'Hardened professionals' with over 40 years experience means nothing, apart fae probable tinitus. I have almost, but not quite, been put off seeing bands in huge arenas for life after several horrific experiences. You can't beat a medium sized (Mareel sized) venue, with a good PA, a good sound engineer, and a great crowd. Best for atmosphere, sound, and overall gig experience in a place like Shetland.

 

Saying that, I have had a few belting nights in the Clickimin, but several more ones where my experience was ruined by cavernous sound. Ones with a great PA and experienced sound engineers.

[Guest Anonymous]

^^^^

Gifford,

A'll ignore yun, as du's nivir heard REAL music afore. Daft bu**er

A'm spaekin aboot bein able ta hear music. Da notes, and kennin if dey wir richt,. Da wirds, an kennin dat dey cud be heard.

Da feelin dat du's hearin da baand da sam is dey ir upö da CD.

 

Bit, sair ta say, fir too mony years noo, fok i da isle ir been too plaesed ta hear a tune, an no hear da wirds, dat onythin I say will faa upö da sam daef lugs. Da lugs o da sam daft bu**ers dat hae tinitus (I dunna noo, tanks ta electrical therapy).

 

A peerie challenge here dan.

Foo mony fok here can say, haand upö hert, dat dey can hear every wird sung by a local baand???? I ken I canna, an my hearin is dat guid dat I can hear a wife flytin fae ten mile awa, An a pro Mareel boady pleepsin fae 200 mile awa.

 

An, onywye, whaur dus du cum wi da idea dat Mareel is a medium size place? Hit's nae mair dan a fart atil a wasterly gale. An nae doot da soond i'll be da sam.

 

Kill Mareel Noo

[JAStewart]

A'll ignore yun, as du's nivir heard REAL music afore. Daft bu**er

- Assumption.

- Ad Hom.

Foo mony fok here can say, haand upö hert, dat dey can hear every wird sung by a local baand???? I ken I canna, an my hearin is dat guid dat I can hear a wife flytin fae ten mile awa

Is this not another reason to have a good acoustic'd venue?

 

Rasmie can I ask, assuming that Mareel goes ahead and is built - will you use the facilities? Please explain your answer.

[Colin]

If there was anything greatly "amiss" I'm fairly sure it would have been spotted by this (very) late stage.

 

Hmm, well you could start with the 250K pa projected alcohol sales. You should ask JW Gray & Co for figures but, I don't think that the North Star got anywhere near that.

 

I've seen enough business plans over the years to know that most of them are guesswork. Sometimes correct but often wildly optimistic. Don't forget that they are used, primarily, as a mechanism to obtain funding and, as such, are given to putting a pretty gloss on things.

[Guest Anonymous]

Foo mony fok here can say, haand upö hert, dat dey can hear every wird sung by a local baand???? I ken I canna, an my hearin is dat guid dat I can hear a wife flytin fae ten mile awa

Is this not another reason to have a good acoustic'd venue?

But will it have good acoustics? I rather fear it might not. And if it does, will that make a blind bit of difference to the way local bands set up their equipment, I doubt it.

Maybe I'm oversensitive and over critical of sound quality, when it comes to music, but if it isn't perfect, I hate all kinds of music.

When it's right, I'll happily listen to Punk with just as much enthusiasm as Clasical, Country, Folk, and almost anything, apart from Rap

Rasmie can I ask, assuming that Mareel goes ahead and is built - will you use the facilities? Please explain your answer.

 

If, by some quirk of council stupidity, it goes ahead. Damned right I'll use it. Not using it would be a waste of public money.

Although, and you did ask me to explain.

If I want a "real Cinema Experience", I'll bung a film in the DVD, put on a very good set of headphones, and enjoy it. Without the crap sound quality of the modern cinema experience, and without the noise of popcorn crunching kids.

 

Musical events; certainly I'll try to use it. But, given the small capacity, and hence the small chance of getting a ticket for any big group which comes up, I'm afraid I'll most likely travel to a 'known good venue', to hear that group.

Local acts on the other hand. Certainly. I'll go to one gig, and assuming the acoustics happen to come out right, I'll go to as many gigs as I can. Especially if all the money being spent on sound equipment and rehearsal facilities means that the local acts, for the first time ever, manage to get the vocal levels sorted so that the lyrics can be heard.

[JustMe]

Colin wrote

Hmm, well you could start with the 250K pa projected alcohol sales. You should ask JW Gray & Co for figures but, I don't think that the North Star got anywhere near that.

Oh come on Colin, the North Star was not a cinema open most nights of the week as well as hosting gigs and offering a pleasant place to drink and with a nice view..........I think. Would be far more interesting to know what the Scalloway hall bar takes on a good night. Then again that 250K equals £700 a night every night of the year.

 

More interesting in the latest figures given in the glossy brochure is the profit margin for the cafe bar. A total income of 378K with spending (on food, drink etc) at just 162k might be a little optimistic.

[Spinner72]

A peerie challenge here dan.

Foo mony fok here can say, haand upö hert, dat dey can hear every wird sung by a local baand????

 

Definitely. And if i canna, i'll go up and have a wird tae let dem keen. Something i'm pretty sure any idder musician wid do in the circumstances.

 

A sweeping generalisation that no local band or sound team can set up a PA is nothing more than silly, however, if dats how du feels, obviously some kinda setup where the locals can be educated and gain experience is vital i would think?

[McFly]

I've been trying to keep my distance from this debate recently, given my distance from Shetland

and lack of presence on Shetlink over the last few months, but.....

As a professional sound engineer, working in a well known London concert venue a few points

in a recent post caught my eye and I just couldn't let them pass.

 

If you hear crap sound, then 9 times out of 10 it is because the band set up their equipment wrong for the venue.

 

This is a gross simplification. There are countless reasons why one might hear bad sound at a gig. Badly set up equipment is indeed one, as is a performer with a poor grasp of microphone technique, or a dirty mains supply, or a late get in leading to hurried sound-check..........etc, etc, etc.

There are so many variables that are difficult to control. Venue owners must, therefore, do their utmost to create favourable conditions with the variables they can control.

The most fundamental of these is room acoustics. A room with good enough acoustics, and the right mix of instruments played by skilled musicians, needs no PA or sound engineer (yes, these rooms are rare, but they do exist).

And, conversly, the best sound engineer in the world will struggle to get good, clear sound in a "poor" acoustic space (I put poor in inverted commas because this is another simplification. Your definition of poor acoustics will vary depending on what you want to achieve).

So, I would say that the most important factor in designing a performance space is creating an acoustic environment suited to the type of noise you intend to make.

 

The more open a venue is, the less likely it is to be affected by the audience.

 

Another gross simplification. 5000 people (and all the heat and humidity they create) can have a profound effect on the acoustics of a big space. I know, I've heard it from behind a mixing desk. Correct me if I've picked this up the wrong way, but you seem to be suggesting that a big room suffers less from environmental acoustic effects than a small one. This is not the case, the effects are just different, and need different solutions.

There are acoustically good and bad small rooms and there are good and bad big rooms. One is not "better" than the other.

 

If the Oslo Konserthus, purpose built venue, has crap acoustics. What will be different about Mareel?

 

Different designers? Different brief? Different budgets? Different building regulations?......

My point being, who knows? I'm sorry to labour a point here, but there are countless reasons why one acoustic space can be different from another. And the fact (? I'm taking your word for this) that the Oslo Konserthus has poor acoustics is absolutely no reason to suppose Mareel will also.

 

I'm afraid that the more you argue in favour of Mareel, the more points you raise against it, in the minds of people who take the ultimate quality of music really seriously.

 

What an arrogant statement.

I would imagine that most of the people arguing in favour of Mareel take music quality very seriously. Surely that must be a large part of the reason for wanting a purpose built venue. I can't help suspecting that many of them also have a much more detailed knowledge of acoustics than you do.

 

I agree with you that local bands should strive to develop the skills to allow them to operate in less favourable venues, but I don't see how this can be an argument against Mareel. It is not just intended to be a nice sounding hall for local bands to have an easy life in. I'm not going into all the varied purposes Mareel is intended for because they've been covered at length elsewhere, but to argue against it because it will provide local bands with a pleasant performance space seems a little perverse to me.

[Brink]

Welcome back McFly! Your contributions have been missed!

[Colin]

Would be far more interesting to know what the Scalloway hall bar takes on a good night.

Then again that 250K equals £700 a night every night of the year.

 

No secret. Average of around £300 for a fairly busy Saturday night. Mainly because we let 16+ age groups in and don't sell drink to kids although, if we did, we could probably double that figure.

[Marvin]

In the 'members only' club in Lerwick in which I worked an average take on a Friday night was well above £1000 (£2000 on a very busy night). That was with 120 capacity, open for 4 hours and we sold pints about 50p cheaper than the pubs (this was about 7 years ago).