Mareel - Cinema & Music Venue

[Talpa]

The money in the Charitable Trust belongs to the whole population of Shetland and a growing number of residents are fed up of the money being squandered on ill fated projects.

 

Yes, we are. I agree. So here's the bottom line, there are those who believe it will be ill-fated and those who believe it will succeed.

 

I have studied the figures and am happy to go with the review as presented at the last council meeting. That means accepting that there are weaknesses in the business plan.

 

I simply argue that one big weakness is not being able to take into account indirect benefit to Shetland's economy. See my last post re. Shetland's creative industries and the zillions of previous posts from others (many of whom will be doing the very work / building the very businesses I mean) trying to show and convince you of this over the last 60 or so pages...

[Talpa]

Does the argument, energy and passion that comes out on this thread not give some glimmer of belief that there might be a lot of talented, energetic, passionate folk around who will be throwing themselves into making this work?

 

Oh, if only we could persude the equally passionate doubters - the things we could do together

[JohanofNess]

I honestly believe that those who are aggresively against Mareel don't understand the economic arguments for being part of the growing creative industries in the UK. It's happening now. Why shouldn't Shetland be part of that? We need new industries. Mareel will provide infrastructure/ training/ a professsional centre of excellence (pages and pages of these arguments in this thread)

 

It's fair enough not to understand if you don't work in the industry BUT PLEASE listen to and trust those who do so that we can show you.

 

To understand an economic argument you have to make one, you haven't quantified what the ecomomic benefit to the local community will be you've just said trust us which to me is put blind faith in you. Spend north of £10 million on blind faith, you expect a hell of a lot of trust.

[Talpa]

To understand an economic argument you have to make one, you haven't quantified what the ecomomic benefit to the local community will be you've just said trust us which to me is put blind faith in you. Spend north of £10 million on blind faith, you expect a hell of a lot of trust.

 

I don't think that is completely fair. It is not blind faith, the creative industries are not made up of fools and subsidy junkies. It just doesn't work like that from an industry point of view. Mareel is not expected as some divine right but it is an investment in Shetland by national and local bodies into a growing industry here, in the UK and internationally.

 

The arguments have been laid out throughout this thread and in other places from official documents, reports and in letters in other local media. With respect, they are there. People have been careful to back them up with figures and with other sources. There is passion and also sensible and economic arguments.

[MuckleJoannie]

The council produced some figures a few years ago that from £125 million in grants from the CT, they had only recovered something in the region of £4 or £5 million. Were this a real company, the CT would have gone to the wall long ago.

 

I think you are confusing grants with loans. Once a grant is paid out it has gone for ever. Over the years the Charitable Trust has paid out £10 to £20 million a year in grants, either for capital projects or running costs. Repayment is only required when the grantee fails to meet grant conditions.

 

On the other hand the Charitable Trust has lent out millions, either itself or through associated bodies, most of which has been repaid in full, apart from a few well publicised failures. (eg SSG)

[JohanofNess]

I don't think that is completely fair. It is not blind faith, the creative industries are not made up of fools and subsidy junkies.

 

Never said they were, I said that you were telling people to trust folk in the industry which is a big ask when tens of millions are being spent.

 

It just doesn't work like that from an industry point of view. Mareel is not expected as some divine right but it is an investment in Shetland by national and local bodies into a growing industry here, in the UK and internationally.

 

Well it shouldn't be expected as a divine right and as for it being a growing industry as I said before in times of economic hardship its the first thing people cut back on so it's more than possible Shetland is trying to enter a growing market at the point its away to drop.

 

The arguments have been laid out throughout this thread and in other places from official documents, reports and in letters in other local media. With respect, they are there. People have been careful to back them up with figures and with other sources. There is passion and also sensible and economic arguments.

 

The building proposed is a compromise to ensure that an arts facility gets built, it's publicy funded when in the majority of cases it wouldn't have been and that is in my opinion because its on an island 200 miles north of the mainland. The arguments are based on projections which of course are in favour of Mareel that doesn't mean they are realistic in the current financial climate. There have been many counter arguments through this thread as well that doesn't make them definitely right either. If this place couldn't be built by a private backer because they didn't feel it would return the investment then I feel that the Arts trust should be more realistic, to say it won't require any subsidy by year six is going to leave the head of Arts in a very bad position if it does and knowing Shetlanders some will call for his head the second that the figures don't go as projected.

 

What nags away in the back of my mind is too many people are arguing for it being built with public cash and I get the feeling they don't really care if it goes over budget (which it will) if it always requires subsidy (which it might) as long as its built.

 

But we'll know none of this until it's built and the first five years are by with. I hope it does work out as a success I really do anything which shows young folk getting hammered and kicking the crap out of each other is a waste of life is great in my opinion but if it is going to be a community cornerstone lets not kid ourselves on about the public funding.

[ArabiaTerra]

we need better reasons to build it than "we don't have one already", and "local music needs a home to call its own".

Fair point.

 

My reasons for building Mareel:

Our young folk passionately want Mareel

With our aging population our young folk are our future

I would rather live in a community with a culture of film and music than a culture of alcohol

The business plan has been rigorously scutinised, and it works; we can do it.

 

What reasons do other folk have?

My reasons for supporting the Mareel are that I'm not into sport and after decades of millions being spent exclusively on the sport-billies, I am finally getting a few million spent on something which I do enjoy, namely, music and film.

 

If the detractors were attacking the absurd over-provision of sports facilities and their continuing need for subsidy far exceeding anything the Mareel will require even in the worst case scenario, with the same venom, then I might have some sympathy for their position, but as it is I have no time for them. The decision has been made. Live with it.

[Talpa]

Never said they were, I said that you were telling people to trust folk in the industry which is a big ask when tens of millions are being spent.

 

To be fair, I wouldn't 'tell' anyone to do that. It is not millions of pounds on trust alone. It is based on serious research, reports, national policies and strategies. The dry but ESSENTIAL stuff on which any investment of this size MUST be based. Many previous investments have not been so soundly researched or scrutinised.

 

 

Well it shouldn't be expected as a divine right and as for it being a growing industry as I said before in times of economic hardship its the first thing people cut back on so it's more than possible Shetland is trying to enter a growing market at the point its away to drop.

 

Is this true? I appreciate not everyone is inspired by the facts & figures but to demonstrate Mareel is based on strong economic arguments here are some of these. It is important to illustrate what these industries are and why this is a growing industry. If we, in the industry, don't take the time to do then we can't complain if people don't understand.

 

So:

 

Firstly, what are the Creative Industries?

 

The Dept. of Culture, Media & Sport defined the creative industries as 'those activities which have their origin in individual creativity, skill and talent and which have a potential for wealth and job creation through the generation and exploitation of intellectual property', eg advertising, architecture, the art and antiques market, crafts, design, designer fashion, film and video, interactive leisure software, music, the performing arts, publishing, software and computer services, television and radio.

 

Mareel is an investment in these industries, in particular the facilities and training will directly benefit the second half of that list and can provide benefit to the former through collaborative projects and businsses initiatives.

 

 

"Why promote Scottish creative industries?

 

Scotland's creative industries are booming. With music, design, film and computer games exported across the globe Scotland's reputation for original content is growing fast." British Council

 

According to The British Council, the creative industries are the fastest growing sector of the UK economy, employing 1.8million people and worth an estimated £56billion, accounting for almost 8% of the UK’s gross added value (Culture and Creativity, British Council, 2007).

 

The UK music industry alone is worth £5billion a year, generating 126,000 full-time jobs (UK Trade & Investment, 2007).

 

The sector has seen a 9% rise in employment in recent years, with the running of arts facilities growing by 38% (Footprint Report, Creative & Cultural Skills, 2007).

 

 

The Creative industries (Scottish Cultural Strategy)

 

"The Creative Industries contribute substantially to the Scottish economy. Scottish Enterprise estimates that they support 100,000 jobs and contribute around £5 billion to the Scottish economy annually.

 

They are set to grow significantly faster than the economy as a whole and there is every indication that this trend will continue.

 

This is a result of:

 

Massive growth in the global infrastructure for rapid distribution of information and creative content

 

The removal of barriers between industries through the digitisation of audio visual content which allows it to be more readily distributed on a global basis across different technology platforms, such as the Internet, digital television and broadband

 

The emergence of a mass of niche markets for content

 

New applications of technology which will generate new cultural forms and new businesses, such as web and digital arts, and computer games

 

The change in emphasis in computer use from processing users' own data to accessing pre-published content, usually with an interactive element.

 

The success of the creative industries is based upon the effective combination of creativity, enterprise and the application of new technologies.

 

There are enormous opportunities for export earnings in the creative industries which can highlight internationally Scotland's achievements in developing new forms of cultural expression. "

 

If you familiarise yourself with the plans for Mareel these are exactly the sorts of facilities and training Mareel aims to provide. It is up to us, in the industry, to provide the enterprise and initiative required to maximise this investment. With the emphasis and reliance on new technology in these industries Shetland is no longer at a disadvantage due to our geography.

 

We already have the talent and it is on the basis of this that I would ask for trust that Shetland can be part of and potentially do very well in this growing sector. The investment itself is based on a lot more.

 

You make other interesting points that I will take the time to read, consider and reply to - but I am aware this is already a rather long post!

[TeeAyBee]

will you please stop feeding the troll?

 

Troll? Is that the name given to anyone who expresses a view against Mareel?

 

Hardly. Well reasoned opposition, if only to play devil's advocate, is vital to serious debate and should be encouraged. It is trolling that I'm against.

 

"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)"

 

(Edited because the wiki link was causing the whole post to be invisible - phpBB doesn't like the "_(Internet)" part of the URL.)

[Talpa]

Like ArabiaTerra I find it increasingly hard to respond to venomous or sneering comments but think it's important to continue to address genuine doubts.

 

The building proposed is a compromise to ensure that an arts facility gets built, it's publicy funded when in the majority of cases it wouldn't have been and that is in my opinion because its on an island 200 miles north of the mainland.

 

Is it a compromise? I think it is forward-looking by housing a range of facilities and equipment for audience, professionals, practitioners and students of music, film, digital media and arts under one roof. Encouraging cross-platform work.

 

The arguments are based on projections which of course are in favour of Mareel that doesn't mean they are realistic in the current financial climate.

 

In the current climate the creative industries are cited as a potential growth area. In particular where they exploit the growth in new media and technologies or provide content (music/ film etc.) for these areas. We need success in such industries precisely to boost the economy and reverse current financial trends.

 

 

There have been many counter arguments through this thread as well that doesn't make them definitely right either.

 

Of course.

 

If this place couldn't be built by a private backer because they didn't feel it would return the investment then I feel that the Arts trust should be more realistic, to say it won't require any subsidy by year six is going to leave the head of Arts in a very bad position if it does and knowing Shetlanders some will call for his head the second that the figures don't go as projected.

 

Indeed. To be realistic there must be an understanding of the whole picture, including returns to the investment by the creative industries. Shetland Arts would be wise to find a way to record and get this across to the wider community in the future. Both as an idea and in terms of figures. The creative industries must do their bit too.

 

What nags away in the back of my mind is too many people are arguing for it being built with public cash and I get the feeling they don't really care if it goes over budget (which it will) if it always requires subsidy (which it might) as long as its built.

 

It is a prudent to consider this as a risk (as it is with any project) and delaying tactics won't have helped, we don't know yet. However, we do not yet have any evidence for it being over-budget or any solutions to consider or debate. I am not going to shy away from risk but we are not at this point or sure whether we will be. The tenders are out now, contingency will be part of tenders.

 

Many people do care - I certainly wouldn't be spending my Sunday morning seriously considering your arguments if I didn't. Musicians, film-makers etc. etc. are also Shetland residents/ council tax payers. The debate in the industry is based on a realistic sense of where we are, but the difference is that many believe this will succeed and benefit Shetland.

 

But we'll know none of this until it's built and the first five years are by with.

 

Yes. There are those who believe it can work (many of those being the very folk who will be working to make it so) and those who don't. Again, Shetland Arts and creative industry professionals should work hard to get the whole picture across to the community during the first few years.

 

I hope it does work out as a success I really do anything which shows young folk getting hammered and kicking the crap out of each other is a waste of life is great in my opinion

 

Very strongly agree. Creative industries have been embraced by young people, many of whom see new media, music, film, internet etc. etc. as a part of daily life and as a serious career prospect. They are not the 'arts mob' they are, trying not to sounding too grandiose, the future.

 

but if it is going to be a community cornerstone lets not kid ourselves on about the public funding.

 

Mareel is a nationally and locally funded project and investment in the creative industries. We either get behind it and make public money work or we don't, the latter would indeed be a waste.

[TeeAyBee]

@ JohannofNess & Talpa

 

Thank you for returning the debate to the issues rather than some of the silliness exhibited previously. The issues need rational debate and the emotional knee jerk (on both sides) doesn't help anyone.

 

To one of the matters arising: I should say that all things are compromises. Mareel's location limits certain factors in the build, capacity for one. There are other locations for sure, but factors such as infrastructure and a combined approach to delivery of entertainment come into play. The trick is compromising on what can be compromised on while maintaining the overall functionality and direction which I believe has been done.

 

If I can draw your attention to this week's edition of the Shetland Times - I see that Malcolm Younger is recruiting for a trainee video editor with exposure to Apple computers. This is exactly what the digital media facilities is designed to provide. Okay so it is just one and well before Mareel becomes a reality, but with plans to expand and the business intention to engage with more work south, it is quite clearly the right thing to do.

 

That having been said, one job alone does not justify the whole project, however, I believe it is just the start.

[Talpa]

At times I am a little confused about where public figures stand on the Creative Industries:

 

The Shetland Development Trust is pleased to confirm its commercial investment of £250,000 with Millgaet Media Ltd to assist in its long-term business expansion plans. The local company specialises in photography, film and video, graphic design and publishing. Millgaet Media Ltd is also well known for its monthly “ii Shetland†magazine and provides television coverage in news and current affairs for Scottish Television.

 

Managing Director of Millgaet Media Ltd, Malcolm Younger, said “We are delighted to have received the backing of the Trust which will allow us to take forward our sustainable expansion plans for the company. We are very excited about the opportunities that exist to secure larger contracts within the media and creative industry sector in the UKâ€.

 

Josie Simpson, Chairman of the Development Committee, said “We are pleased to make this investment, which will allow the company to take forward its plans to expand in the local and national media sectors, offering high quality media and design products.

 

But Josie Simpson voted against Mareel...

 

Against – Gussie Angus, Allison “Flea†Duncan, Betty Fullerton, Iris Hawkins, Robert Henderson, Gary Robinson, Josie Simpson, Jonathan Wills and Allan Wishart.

 

Ok to invest in one business but not in a project that benefits many businesses and the whole community? I appreciate that this is a commercial investment but it relies on a belief in the potential growth of the sector to make it a wise investment.

[Talpa]

If I can draw your attention to this week's edition of the Shetland Times - I see that Malcolm Younger is recruiting for a trainee video editor with exposure to Apple computers. This is exactly what the digital media facilities is designed to provide.

 

Yes. And Millgaet is one of many businesses in the creative industries. I cannot comment on the individual business or wisedom of this particular investment as I do not know exactly what the money will be used for and must assume that the Trust subjected the plans and figures to scrutiny?

 

It is a large investment and I hope it is wisely spent and that Millgaet does well and provides employment.

 

This underlines my original point - it would be useful if there was some consistency from public figures on this. As I say, this commercial investment in one business relies on a belief/ trust in the growth of these industries and on economic benefit being returned to Shetland. The same arguments used in favour of Mareel.

[TeeAyBee]

If I can draw your attention to this week's edition of the Shetland Times - I see that Malcolm Younger is recruiting for a trainee video editor with exposure to Apple computers. This is exactly what the digital media facilities is designed to provide.

 

Yes. And Millgaet is one of many businesses in the creative industries. I cannot comment on the individual business or wisedom of this particular investment as I do not know exactly what the money will be used for and must assume that the Trust subjected the plans and figures to scrutiny?

 

I expect so, particularly in the light of the SSG issues. The announcement in the paper a few weeks ago mentioned someone from SDT being appointed to the Milgaet board, no doubt to ensure that their investment is wisely and appropriately used. I don't know the specifics of the plans either, but I wish Malcolm all the best. From my personal point of view, raising the profile of Shetland in terms of new media and TV is only going to mean that there are more opportunities for me too.

[Medziotojas]

Second Mareel state aid complaint, but it looks likely that Mareel will remain on track:

 

http://www.shetland-news.co.uk/news_07_2008/Second%20Mareel%20state%20aid%20complaint.htm

 

Scotland’s EC spokesman Neil Mitchison said that while an investigation may take weeks or months it did not mean that the project could not proceed as planned.

 

“A large number of cases are dealt with by quite informal conversation. The important point to realise is that the commission follows up any complaint which it does not have reason to dismiss on the face of it.

 

“The fact that the commission is investigating doesn’t necessarily mean there will be any substance to it, it simply means the commission does not know and has a duty to find out.â€