Mareel - Cinema & Music Venue

[Dratsy]

lets take your high estimate of 6 folk per screening brian and factor the build cost at £12 million (low estimate)

£12,000,000/6=£2,000,000

so before any running costs are taken into account it will take 400,000 screening at £5/head to break even or 200,000 screenings at £10/head or 100,000 screenings at £20/head.

Are you with me so far Brian because I'm sure as hell not with you on this.

And this is why your business plan is at best a fantasy.

Now lets factor in the cost of the actual movie I've no bloody idea what that will be but lets be generous to you and say the movie costs a £1000 to screen (please correct me on this figure if I'm wrong so we can adjust the calculations)

then there is the cost of electric but hey maybe you have done a deal with VE to get that for free then there is staffing costs, rates, wear and tear etc

so at £20/head and a £1000 per film you need 50 folk just to cover the cost of the film with out any other cost being taken into account. and you wonder why there are so many detractors.

your a nice guy and a fairly good musician but for gods sake there is not one person in the arts trust that I TRUST to run any kind of business, and your post proves this point quite well.

I know you are going to come back and say that there will be sales of food and drink to make up the difference but the mark up will have to be outrageous to have any effect so outrageous in fact that no one will be able to afford food and drink while watching a movie, so outrageous in fact that it will be cheaper to fly to aberdeen and stay in a hotel after going to the cinema and flying home the next day with taxis to and from Sumburgh.

[Neon Lights]

Here are the prices for Vue Cinema in Aberdeen:

 

Adult - £7.50

Child - £5.55

Teen ( 13-18 ) - £5.95

Student - £3.55

Senior - £5.55

 

These prices are for PEAK TIMES.

 

I would sugest that Mareel would need to have prices no more than £2.00 higher than this for it to be realistically priced.

 

I don't think an adult ticket should be more than £10.00 as it would reduce the number of people who were willing to use the facility.

[MuckleJoannie]

lets take your high estimate of 6 folk per screening brian and factor the build cost at £12 million (low estimate)

 

The cost of building the Mareel comes entirely from grants so there is no call to make any return on capital. They only need to cover their running costs.

[Dratsy]

Da money fae sooth might no matter but da money fae da cooncil wida been better spent keeping da schools open or dus du disagree we dat.

dan dir's da running costs as mentioned above.

Na Joanie I tink dir his been a lok o helliry spooted be da arts trust an if every wan o dem loses dir jobs I fir wan ll no shed ony tears.

[Malachy]

To cut a long story short, Mareel will require far less audience members per screening than the Garrison to hit the break even point (I'm reluctant to give a figure as there are several factors involved, but in many cases it'll be in the region of 5 or 6).

 

Bryan, this is completely and utterly wrong, and you ought to be ashamed of yourself! It should be 'far fewer audience members', not 'far less'.

[Ghostrider]

With all due respect to those involved, and exactly like VE, IMHO much of the negativity Mareel is and has attracted is due to there simply not being enough information in the public domain.

 

Yes, there will always be rumours and cock and bull stories that circulate for a project of this size, and yes, its asking too much to expect to have the entire design spec published in full down to whether the bannister rails are secured with 10 or 12 gauge screws and the leading edge of the stair treads are aluminium or stainless steel..... However, the opposite also applies, in that simply publishing floor plans and relying on loacl authority planning documentation which they've put in the public domain, along with telling folk "its been designed by folk who know what they're doing", simply isn't enough to satisfy a lot of folk's doubts and concerns. Especially when they see on what information is available issues that concern them, or simply aren't supplied with any information for something that for a facility of this type should be a vital requirement.

 

This is a public facility financed by public funds, does that not equate to the public having a right to know that it really is fit for purpose? Is there not a moral, and if nit, certainly a PR need to "sell" the "suitability" of the facility to the public. Remember, that again just like VE, public opinion was largely evenly split on Mareel from very early on. Certainly there will always be a faction who will oppose Mareel and everything about it on principle, but that stillleaves a lot of antis that possibly could have been won over if it had been sold to them during construction. Each day that passes without being won over only increases and entrenches their anti viewpoint.

 

The "build it and they will come" strategy that appears to have been adopted is risky, as it relies on an "all or nothing" approach. It may work, and I hope it does, as if it doesn't, bums on seats simply will not be adequate to generate an income to keep the facility out of the red, and then everybody will be expected to subsidise it on an ongoing basis. Keeping chipping away at the opposition would have seemed the safer tactic to me, but each to their own.

 

Come this stage though, any debate has become largely academic, the build is at such an advanced stage that it will soon speak for itself, and any additions and/or alterations would now involve as much work and expense as they will if done after completion. There was a lengthy period during the build, when what appeared and still appear to be "problem areas" in the design to member(s) of the public, could have been addressed, and either a reassurance given that indeed it was not what it seemed, or then the issue discussed and amended relatively easily and cheaply (in physical terms at least), that window however is now virtually closed.

 

Yes, I know what information was made public and when was almost certainly a decision taken by senior, if not the most senior figure in Shetland Arts, and the time spent on ongoing information distribution constrained by staff workload. However, given this is a relatively complex multi function facility, I don't think the public was expecting too much to be told just how it was all going to work and co-exist in practical terms.

 

Despite whatever opinion may have been formed from earlier posts, I am not necessarily anti-Mareel. The venue part I believe is a good idea, and a potential asset, the rest, I'm dubious, but am open to being persuaded by their level of usage when up and running. I have always been doubtful about the choice of site and the design of the building, but am willing to be persuaded by its us ethat I am wrong in that also. Had a little more information been available concerning some of teh basic design specs which are neither given on the floor plans or planning documents, and from that gleaned the impression that the facility would at least attain what for me is a minimum standard to attain its designed purpose, I could have been optimistic and looking forward to its opening by now, instead I am highly pessimistic and have grave doubts that the necessary compromises to have such a multi-purpose building have rendered it incapable of delivering all of its intended purposes to an acceptable (to me) level.

[ArabiaTerra]

YESSSS!!!!!! dats exactly whit am sayin!! how da hell are yu goin to recoupe any losses when da garrison cant even be filled!!!??? da mareel is going to cost each person waaaay more den whit da garrison charges! can nobody see dat logic?? da mareel should nivir hae been started in da first place!!!

 

I don't go to films at the Garrison due to the seats, which are awful, even if you're in the front row.

 

I will be going to the Mareel.

 

A lot of people I know feel the same way.

[peeriebryan]

So I guess installing a digital projector in the garison was completely out of the question on technical grounds the same with comfier seats.

Yes, it has been considered at length, along with fitting a suitable sound system. The Garrison is a busy community theatre used regularly by a wide variety of groups and organisations. Films are only shown there for 4 days per month as a stop-gap until Mareel opens so investing in state of the art equipment to be used fairly seldom isn't viable.

 

Any big act that will fill the mareel will make a loss because it will only hold the brucks of 600 folk, to have any chance of break even they will have to use the clickimin.

This point has been addressed countless times in this thread. Basically hiring the Clickimin and kitting it out with staging, PA, lights etc makes it too expensive for most gigs. The Clickimin will still be used for events which require the extra capacity

 

and if anyone outside the arts trust cleek want a ticket then the act will have to arrange sale of their themselves just like a certain comedian coming up next month.

Is this some sort of accusation of preferential ticket allocation by Shetland Arts staff Dratsy?

 

@unlinkedstudent - I refer you back to our previous correspondence in this thread. I can't really think of anything else to add! Site visits have been reduced lately as we head towards completion, but I haven't forgotten about you! At this stage it's probably worth a tour when it's complete rather than tripping over joiners and sparkies.

 

I'm sure you mean 5 or 6 people required to watch a film for Mareel to 'hit the break even point', I'm just struggling to comprehend how that can be

The point I was trying to make is that once overheads have been reduced, the main costs for a screening to break even boil down to licensing the rights to show the film which, depending on the film, can be relatively inexpensive - others, particularly first release 'blockbusters' are considerably more expensive. However, it isn't as simple as a single screening breaking even for the whole building to break even - as a multi-purpose building staffing costs, electricity etc etc and incomes are shared across the board (cafe income, charges for education spaces, rehearsal rooms, recording studio, both cinema screens, main concert auditorium etc).

 

The reason I was reluctant to give a specific number is I knew someone would extrapolate and come up with some nonsensical results, which was indeed the case.

 

Bryan, this is completely and utterly wrong, and you ought to be ashamed of yourself! It should be 'far fewer audience members', not 'far less'.

My apologies to you and your colleagues at the Grammar Police

 

lets take your high estimate of 6 folk per screening brian and factor the build cost at £12 million (low estimate)

£12,000,000/6=£2,000,000

so before any running costs are taken into account it will take 400,000 screening at £5/head to break even or 200,000 screenings at £10/head or 100,000 screenings at £20/head.

Are you with me so far Brian because I'm sure as hell not with you on this.

And this is why your business plan is at best a fantasy.

Now lets factor in the cost of the actual movie I've no bloody idea what that will be but lets be generous to you and say the movie costs a £1000 to screen (please correct me on this figure if I'm wrong so we can adjust the calculations)

then there is the cost of electric but hey maybe you have done a deal with VE to get that for free then there is staffing costs, rates, wear and tear etc

so at £20/head and a £1000 per film you need 50 folk just to cover the cost of the film with out any other cost being taken into account.

your a nice guy and a fairly good musician but for gods sake there is not one person in the arts trust that I TRUST to run any kind of business, and your post proves this point quite well.

Erm, my post didn't say that 6 folk per screening was an estimate or average, it was an example of how few paying customers can be required at some screenings for the screening to pay for itself. As mentioned above, there will be a range of different screenings of different films on both screens on any given day, together with the range of other activities going on in the building. And as MuckleJoannie pointed out, the capital doesn't have to be repaid.

 

If I was cynical I might think that you'd deliberately taken my post out of context in order to perpetuate your Mareel bashing. Luckily I'm not a cynical person

 

Da money fae sooth might no matter but da money fae da cooncil wida been better spent keeping da schools open or dus du disagree we dat.

The money for Mareel being used to keep schools open is a regularly raised point and I completely understand the sentiment. However, the SIC's education revenue budget had to be reduced so any capital injection would only be a short term measure to further delay revenue cuts.

 

@ Neon Lights - the prices for cinema screenings will indeed be broadly comparable to 'sooth' cinemas.

 

@ Ghostrider - I appreciate your points, and we've covered similar ground a couple of months back. As you say, "any debate has become largely academic", however, I think there's been a considerable amount of information made available - examples include regular updates in the media and Shetland Arts website / social media channels, a FAQ leaflet included in the Shetland Times, regular meetings where people can come and ask questions and voice concerns, Shetland Arts staff went 'on tour' around community halls a few years back to consult with folk, staff have given talks at various meetings/conferences, and staff are always more than happy to answer questions.... in fact, I can't think of a comparable building where so much information has been made available or opportunities presented for folk to get in touch and I'm not sure what else could have been done given the pressures on staff time and resources. I understand that you're interested in some more specific points and I'll continue to do my best to answer your questions.

 

As a general point, in my experience much of the negativity has come from persistent rumours (some laughable, some concerning and some defamatory!) which were not attributable to a lack of information - some folk just seem to want to make things up, exaggerate and moan. Many detractors have based their opinion on falsehoods and rarely wish to engage in facts (I know this from experience - I've had many a discussion on the street / pub / country shop where folk present a series of rumours or opinions as facts, I point out the actual fact(s) and they choose to ignore it because it doesn't suit them or they're against the idea of Mareel and/or Shetland Arts in principle). I completely understand that many folk think the money could have been put to better use, but to perpetuate rumours and groundless negativity is extremely counter productive.

 

I hope folk, particularly the detractors, will come to Mareel with an open mind and judge the building and events on merit. All it needs to be successful is for folk to come and use it!

[fordcapri]

...and still waiting fur a definative price fur an adult ticket? (bryans avoiding my simple question)"broadly comparable ta sooth" means jack @@!t to me! cmon mareel people yu claim to hae dun aa da math so whits da cost o a ticket?...must be cheap remember, it myt soond aryt fur som ta pay £10 fur wan ticket, baer in mynd wis eens dat hae bairns!! say £6 fur a bairn, wi my 2 an me dats £22!!!! Rip aff!!...

and to dem who will not use da garrison fur da uncomfy seats!!...did yu gae ta skool? or did yu use da same excuse no ta attend dat? i kaen da years i pat in dae in dae oot upo a herd widen shair didna du me ony harm...wish my butt wis as blessed as yurs!!

 

mind da garrison is bookt up fur munts on end so says bryan,fur iddir shows so da seatin canna be dat bad!!

[Dratsy]

Dratsy wrote:

Any big act that will fill the mareel will make a loss because it will only hold the brucks of 600 folk, to have any chance of break even they will have to use the clickimin.

Peerie Bryan wrote:

This point has been addressed countless times in this thread. Basically hiring the Clickimin and kitting it out with staging, PA, lights etc makes it too expensive for most gigs. The Clickimin will still be used for events which require the extra capacity

Buy the pa lights etc and install them in the clickimin one off cost

A month would of seen the garison seats and a projector and screen installed.

so forgive me if I think this is a more cost effective way of providing the facilities that are sought after.

 

As for tickets I have never been able to get a ticket for any gig put on by Shetland arts and I don't know many folk that have either, but low and behold when the artist puts the tickets on sale them self then not only do I get a ticket but every one I know that tried for a ticket gets one too. make of that what you will.

[unlinkedstudent]

I refer you back to our previous correspondence in this thread. I can't really think of anything else to add! Site visits have been reduced lately as we head towards completion, but I haven't forgotten about you! At this stage it's probably worth a tour when it's complete rather than tripping over joiners and sparkies.

 

Well, I can think of something you can add - simply get the details of the soundproofing materials used and I'll contact manufacturers and then at least I'll know what to what level the said materials are effective to in order to prevent sound transferrence.

 

Your Site Manager will, no doubt, be able to provide this information to you. Likewise, your somewhat 'silent' acoustic consultants should be able to provide you with information regarding a volume output limiter.

 

Publish the contents of the Appendices that accompanied the planning application on your website - if you've nothing to hide, then why not make it available to us mer members of the public?

 

You could also answer the question regarding the cloakroom though.

 

As for your comment re tripping over joiners and sparkies - I'm gonna let Ghostrider answer that - I'm saving my 'attack the swear filter' mutterings for the likes of VE.

[peeriebryan]

...and still waiting fur a definative price fur an adult ticket? (bryans avoiding my simple question)

I'm not avoiding anything - I'm more than happy to answer questions here, and the answer is that ticket prices will vary! (time of day, day of the week, new release or 'back catalogue', concessions for kids / OAPs / unemployed etc). I don't know the full pricing structure off the top of my head (I'm the music development officer - I don't programme the cinema) and I'm on holiday so if you want more info give the office a call - 01595 743 843

 

Buy the pa lights etc and install them in the clickimin one off cost

The Clickimin is a sports centre. To put on a gig it takes a crew of technicians most of a day to erect a stage, assemble a stage barrier, hang and focus lights, set up the PA (it's hired from the mainland as it isn't cost effective to buy, store and maintain a PA of the size required for occasional use in the Clickimin) and the main hall is closed for use as a sports centre for most of a day. Aditionally, if the concert is in the Bowls Hall the floor has to be covered. The costs runs into thousands, and the acoustics are less than ideal. If you don't believe me on any of these points (you stated earlier that my colleagues and I 'spoot helliry') then ask one of the other local promoters, SRT staff or freelance technicians.

 

A month would of seen the garison seats and a projector and screen installed.

The Garrison does have seats, a projector and screen. The point of Mareel's cinema is that it will be available to show a varied programme of films throughout the year therefore catering for a much wider audience, rather than a limited number of films for a limited number of days per year. The evidence gathered over the years (the first steering group set up to campaign for a cinema was established in 1996) indicates that there is sufficient demand for such a facility. Also, retrofitting a listed proscenium theatre that has a fairly flat seating rake to have facilities comparable to a modern cinema is very expensive. All these factors were investigated at length before plans for Mareel were drawn up.

 

As for tickets I have never been able to get a ticket for any gig put on by Shetland arts and I don't know many folk that have either, but low and behold when the artist puts the tickets on sale them self then not only do I get a ticket but every one I know that tried for a ticket gets one too. make of that what you will.

All Shetland Arts events' tickets are sold through the Shetland Box Office - online and at Islesburgh reception. All events are advertised in the local media, posters and via several online channels. Shetland Arts or Box Office staff don't get discounts or preferential booking and have to buy tickets the same as everyone else. I'm vexed you and folk you know can 'never' get tickets for Shetland Arts events, but I guess that since these events must all be sold out then that bodes well for Mareel!

 

Well, I can think of something you can add - simply get the details of the soundproofing materials used and I'll contact manufacturers and then at least I'll know what to what level the said materials are effective to in order to prevent sound transferrence.

 

Your Site Manager will, no doubt, be able to provide this information to you. Likewise, your somewhat 'silent' acoustic consultants should be able to provide you with information regarding a volume output limiter.

Shetland Arts don't have a site manager, DITT do. If you want specifics on the materials used then I humbly suggest you contact DITT. And there won't be an automatic volume output limiter - our sound technicians are more than capable of controlling the volume.

 

With the greatest of respect Unlinkedstudent, I don't see the relevance of all this. The place is nearly finished, the soundproofing is in-situ already and, to be quite frank, folk are busy with other things as the opening approaches. You're asking some very detailed questions regarding the properties of materials that I don't have the answers to, and I don't think finding them out and posting them here is an appropriate use of my, or the contractors, time at this stage.

 

We've been through all this a couple of months ago, so forgive me if I refer you back to our previous correspondence.

 

You could also answer the question regarding the cloakroom though.

Yes, there is a cloakroom. It's to the right of the foyer.

[unlinkedstudent]

^ Ghostie is going to respond in detail (I'm falling asleep!) but I'm somewhat taken aback with your comment re your sound technicians controlling the volume - is it not the case that bands usually have their own sound (wo)man?

[Ghostrider]

@ peeriebryan: I take your point about,and am certainly not disputing that Shetland Arts have gone to some lengths to provide information, however where we're probably going to have to agree to differ is whether the extent of that information and the mediums employed to distribute it were adequate. As regards information, I would have preferred to have seen a bit more than just floor plans and approx capacities given, especially where the building specs are going to have a large influence on what limitations the facilities provided may have, and that information permenantly available on at least Shetland arts website. Water under teh bridge at this stage though, at this stage nothing could be gained, and very probably largely a matter of opinion anyway.

 

What is indisputable though is that some significant trimming of aspirations had to be undertaken to bring the tender for Mareel to go ahead on the budget available, and that the site is nothing too over large for the project, possibly too small, given how every last scrap available has been utilised. Whether these necessary trimmings have resulted in some aspects of Mareel being pared back to a level that is detrimental to the success of the project, is again probably largely a matter of opinion, and too late to do anything about. Don't get me wrong, I don't doubt everything within teh buidling meets or exceeds the minimum theoretical requirements, I'm sure planning would have been all over it otherwise. Just that when I see things like the size of teh bar, the space available at the stage door/service entry, the apparently minimal kitchen facilities, the locations and size of the main toilet areas, the gradient of the main cinema floor, etc, I do have my doubts. I'll wait and see what the feedback is from users to find out whether its just paranoia on my part though, as I'm sure any debate on them at this stage would be nothing more than my opinion versus theoretical usage specs, and achieve nothing.

 

What I would be interested in though, and which I believe, or at least would hope was a high priority, and widely known is in the practicalities of simultaneous usage. Yup, sorry, but I'm going to have to chime in where the better half left off here.

 

To quote Tom Morton paraphrasing Richard Wemyss in his article in March's 'Shetland Life', "....you could have heavy metal in the man hall, a Bruce Willis movie in teh big cinema and an acoustic session in the cafe..." I don't doubt he's right, technically at least, but it certainly can't be any kind of free for all. Heavy Metal is a particularly apt example, as anyone whose in any way in to it knows the old quote "everything louder than everything else" almost always applies. In practicalterms, this being an indoor venue, Health & safety regs for hearing damage is going to put a ceiling on any HM mob, not the max output of their Marshall's, however, this being a multi purpose venue in a largely residential area, the second line of limitation is in the sound insulation of the main hall and its ability to prevent unacceptable leakages to adjoining areas and other people'sproperties in the neighbourhood. Sound insulation comes in many variations, I have some on my floor, its crap, in fact for what little noise it does deaden, it creates an equal amount grinding one section of it against another when you walk on it, but then again this is a cheap and nasty gash SIC conversion.... In a nutshell, does the soundproofing to be fitted, or hopefully and probably already fitted in the Mareel main hall have a guaranteed 100% effectiveness equal to or exceeding maximum permissable Health & Safety regs noise levels within the hall, and if not how much under does it have a guaranteed effectiveness of?

 

On a side issue of the same subject, correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that the danccfloor in the main hall is floating, but the stage was not. If this is the case, how is vibration from the stage prevented from travelling throughout the whole building? Take that same HM band, or any HM band for that matter, a pounding bass amp is par for the course,as any HM band without one isn't likely to last long. The foundations and internal concrete block walls form a direct line of conductivity fro vibration between the stage and most other parts of the building, concrete blocks are only of moderate vibration conductivity, the bedrock to which the foundations are attached, especially as steel piling was used in part, and the proximity of water close by, is a whole other matter. I don't want to be sitting in the cafe/bar, or in the cinema and feel the thud, thud of vibration from a bass amp travelling through the seat, god knows I get enough of that at home when whatsisface next door racks up his stereo, and he doesn't even have the good sense to be a metal fan....

 

Point I've spent far, far too long getting to is, unless the soundproofing is 100% effective beyond the legal max for Health & Safety noise levels in the main hall, there is going to be a reluctance, especially among certain genres to play the venue. Likewise, unless there is a similar level of vibration deadening from not just the dancefloor, but the stage as well, Mr Wemyss' assertion may only be true if the heavy metal act is limited to a certain volume, very probably a volume that neither band nor audience will consider acceptable.

 

Yes, I know the probability of someone like Motorhead of Doro ever contemplating including Shetland in any tour is around zero, but it would be reassuring to know that if that impossible should ever happen, that at least they could give it full laldy, even if some mushy romance with endless whispering was showing in the main cnema.

[Dratsy]

it isn't cost effective to buy, store and maintain a PA of the size required for occasional use in the Clickimin)

but it is cost effective to build a complete arts centre to house such equipment?????

 

but lets get back to the 6 folk making it cost effective at a tenner each, 60 quid somehow I doubt that. wages are going to be braaly poor at mareel then.

 

As for tickets same artist 2 years apart no bother getting tickets when he promoted himself (I wonder why he did that) no chance when promoted by Shetland arts. maybe he's just not that popular now.

 

But bryan we are going to have to agree to disagree and whether you like it or not you will be buying me a pint with your redundancy when mareel goes to the council with the begging bowl.