Mareel - Cinema & Music Venue

[Guest Anonymous]

 

This is one point the Arts Trust dream list does not cover

 

another point i have heard of is in 'the' report it aparently states some thing like - for a cinema to operate sucesfully the films should be showen as near to the releise date as possible.

 

The councelers read this as " oh that sounds fine" but the relality is that WE would NEVER get films near the releise date. In an independent cinema - as stated many times in this forum and the other one - local small cinemas only get film copies after the big cinemas are finished with them - usualy 3 - 4 weeks after they come out.

 

like in Orkney and the Western Isles the films are anchent!

 

This small but very importaint fact has been obmited from the report.

 

glossing over 'dreams' as 'facts' do misslead everyone

 

I'm not involved in the cinema eleemnts, directly at least, but one of our consultants is. He's very experienced in these matters, and carries a great deal of national respect, especially in rural terms and he does not agree - so at some point we have to believe someone and I've not heard anyone submit any real evidence to ridicule his findings.

 

Perhaps a more realistic comparison would be Thurso where, to the best of my knowledge, this is not the case and the place is runnning very successfully both operationally and financially - an yes our consultant was involved in that project too.

 

All I want is to cut through the hype, rhetoric and spin and get some real facts and some REALISTIC projections.

 

Only then will people be able to make informed decisions.

So what do you suggest as an alternative to that which presently exists and the process employed?

ok then whats their web page so we can all look at whats on - so we can see if ther films are 6 weeks old like the other island cinemas

[jim-jam]

During this thread, several business plans and consultation documents have been mentioned. Are these documents available to the public.

 

If so, where? (electronic documentation preferred)

 

If not, why?

[Marvin]

I can't see it being achievable. Maybe at weekends or during holidays when people are around, but not during the week. The people not working are pensioners and young parents, in the majority - neither of which are a high-spend catagory of people, I would have thought. It's either a lot of food & drink, or very highly priced food & drink.

 

I am not going to argue with Iain because he is in the trade and knows much better than me but I used to work in the Thule on Saturdays (years ago) and £1400 was more than acheivable between dennertime and 11pm. The Venue would also have food on sale through the day. If you add on hotdog and popcorn sales at the cinema side of the venue I don't think those projections are unreasonable (questionable perhaps, but not unreasonable).

[madcow]

Making £1400 on a Saturday in a pub where all they sell is drinks is not an argument.

 

Try a cafe bar or whatever in a venue where the entertainment is meant to be the main feature on a Monday or Tuesday - I really don't think £1400 is achievable.

 

I'm not arguing that the pubs can't make this type of money, I am arguing that a cafe bar or whatever you want to call it, where it is not the main attraction, will be struggling to make this amount day in day out. And they would have to be earning this amount every day to acheive the figures quoted.

[Marvin]

Making £1400 on a Saturday in a pub where all they sell is drinks is not an argument.

 

Try a cafe bar or whatever in a venue where the entertainment is meant to be the main feature on a Monday or Tuesday - I really don't think £1400 is achievable.

 

I'm not arguing that the pubs can't make this type of money, I am arguing that a cafe bar or whatever you want to call it, where it is not the main attraction, will be struggling to make this amount day in day out. And they would have to be earning this amount every day to acheive the figures quoted.

 

 

 

Hows about this for a scenario

 

Monday - Film - 50 people - everybody spends £5 on food/drink - £250

Tuesday - Film and small music event - 150 people - average spend £5 - £750

Wednesday - Film - 100 people - average spend £5 - £500

Thusday - Film and a gig 150 people- average spend £8 - £1200

Friday - Film and a gig - 700 people - average spend £12 - £8,400

Saturday - Film and a gig - 700 peolpe - average spend £12 - £8,400

Sunday - Film and small gig - 100 people - average spend £5 - 500

 

Total income through food/drink - £20,000 which equals out at £2,857 per day. If you add on to that cafe takings through the day from passing trade (its going to be closest cafe to where I work) I don't think it is unreasonable to expect an average of £1400 to come in. The argument is how much of that is displacement from existing businesses and how much of it is 'new' trade.

[JAStewart]

I can't see it being achievable. Maybe at weekends or during holidays when people are around, but not during the week. The people not working are pensioners and young parents, in the majority - neither of which are a high-spend catagory of people, I would have thought. It's either a lot of food & drink, or very highly priced food & drink.

 

I think you've got it all wrong. Even with a cinema/music venue, people will tend to drink at the weekends moreover than anything, but the majority of people want something to do during the week. At least thats how I see it. It will be used during the week.

[DavieG]

As an aside;

My Council Tax bill shows an increase of more than £200 this year and the 'pro' lobby are glibly stating that an extra £80,000 (their figure not mine. More likely 4 or 5 times that in my estimation) is 'insignificant' against the overall spend. Yeah..

 

Out of interest what is your 'estimation' based on?

 

And just a final point on this one. You, and others, seem to speak as if you are going to get nothing back from this investment, as some actually see it - believe it or not.

 

Of course we have to pay for high quality public services, and I'm not playing down any deficit figure, however small, it may take to run this facility but many seem to think its a relatively small price to pay for an all-year-round- 'service' of this nature, which is aimed at the community as a whole. Then of course there are the direct and indirect economical benefits that wont be coming directly back thorough the door but patently exist.

 

And, as I say if, it could help / encourage just one person to stay in this community or even attract one more to come and live here, can we put a price on what that's worth to Shetland? All I'm saying is there are more commercial and economical elements to be considered over and above the patently obvious ones. Also the less people who live here the more we will all have to pay to maintain public services I would assume.

 

And is any cost being applied to our council tax not the best way forward anyway SHOULD (sorry) any additional cost / deficit be necessary once the actual figures are known and the benfits truly evaluated? Certainly it would be the chepest option for many folk / users of all ages, and thats not taking into account any other savings we can make in this respect / sector and any potential outside funding secured to deliver a programme in the facility that would further reduce any deficit

 

I suspect it would certainly be cheaper option in the long run, from most peoples personal perspectives anyway, rather than having to run the thing totally commercially as some seem to want to do. Imagine the ticket prices for a place like Shetland if total commercial returns were to be the only method of operation or funding? The only ones to save would be those that never use it.

 

Consider too if you had to cover all the cost of this (or any of our other social and recreational facilities) purely through private enterprise - you would be paying an astronomical door price and likewise for any other 'services' even existing facilities would offer, and i suspect the range of services on offer would be pretty limited. And of course we would never be able to attract any external funding to support such an enterprise either.

 

Imagine if we adopted this approach to all our other 'services' and how much we would have to pay for them. Personally I dont use many of the services we pay for in Shetland but at some point we have to accept them for the greater good of all.

 

And just one final question. I'm no financial expert but can anyone tell me, just for arguement, what an £80,000 deficit were to be added to our fiscal burden how much that would add to our council tax per annum. And yes I know every little helps / look after the pennies etc.....but I was just wondering!!!!

[DavieG]

ok then whats their web page so we can all look at whats on - so we can see if ther films are 6 weeks old like the other island cinemas

 

Dont have it to hand and just off to a meeting so best to put it into the search engine..

 

Also its fine to say we get some films immediately on release but some we have to wait at least a month for anyway as that is the Filmmobile cycle. And although we get most or all of the blockbusters in this fashion ( a one-off like Harry Potter is not the norm lets be honest - although fantastic it happend) we might not get them all, especially right away anyway - we have waited two months for some I would imagine.

 

Also I have it on fairly good authority that we were not going to get Breakback Mountain at all until it won an Oscar.

[Marvin]

As an aside;

 

And just one final question. I'm no financial expert but can anyone tell me, just for arguement, what an £80,000 deficit were to be added to our fiscal burden how much that would add to our council tax per annum. And yes I know every little helps / look after the pennies etc.....but I was just wondering!!!!

 

Zero.....its from different funds.....but nobody believes me....

 

The law would probably prevent any deficit from being funded from the Council's core funds.

[Guest Anonymous]

ok then whats their web page so we can all look at whats on - so we can see if ther films are 6 weeks old like the other island cinemas

 

Dont have it to hand and just off to a meeting so best to put it into the search engine..

 

Also its fine to say we get some films immediately on release but some we have to wait at least a month for anyway as that is the Filmmobile cycle. And although we get most or all of the blockbusters in this fashion ( a one-off like Harry Potter is not the norm lets be honest - although fantastic it happend) we might not get them all, especially right away anyway - we have waited two months for some I would imagine.

 

Also I have it on fairly good authority that we were not going to get Breakback Mountain at all until it won an Oscar.

 

welli have it that it was booked a month before and thought of the month b4 that - so i think your wrong!

[DavieG]

Davie

 

I thought the new space was to be a 300 seater or 600 standing. Presuming you would expect people to sit down to watch a performance, how is that any better than the Garrison's 280 capacity? Its only 20 more people - hardly going to make a difference to the total income/expenditure figures for a performance.

 

This will only be finally determined at the final design stage but the hope is for at least 350 sitting and 700 standing.

 

 

 

Also the Council's reserves are slowly but surely slipping away. A time, then, to be looking at saving AS MUCH as possible, not throwing more away. I understand what you are saying when you said £80,000 was a small amount compared to the council's total expenditure, but if every trust and department were to take this attitude there will be b***er all left in no time at all.

 

 

Answered this before.

 

You say you're trying to attract new people and keep people here in the future - who's going to want to come here when the council is practically bankrupt, they can't get a job, there's is no housing or education available for their families, etc? That could very well be the scenario in a few years' time at the rate the reserves are being depleted.

 

Lets seriously hope not. You are taking a very bleak view and I've not met anyone who shares such a stance. And if you ask in some SIC quarters I believe their returns on investments are very healthy indeed.

 

I have children and I hope they will want to live here when they grow up, but, honestly, an arts venue is not going to be one of the factors they will be considering when making that decision.

 

Be fair you can't speak for everyone and who knows they might even change their minds on any such issue in the future.

[JustMe]

Hi all, been looking back over some earlier messages and I would like to ask just what is wrong with Shetland having to wait a bit to see the latest movies. As long as it is still well before tv showing or release on dvd can we not all be patient and accept the delay as a small price to pay for living in Shetland.

 

Someone phoned in a question to BBC Radio Shetland tonight concerning the new arts centre and those fuel tanks. Ok so people will ask why that did not stop the North Ness business park being built to which I can only say that post Buncefield there is a new attitude of caution about building anything near fuel storage depots.

 

That said I do expect that the council will not go to the building phase of the new venue before the tanks are removed to a safer location or at least the building of new tanks is under way.

[petergear]

I have children and I hope they will want to live here when they grow up, but, honestly, an arts venue is not going to be one of the factors they will be considering when making that decision.

 

The complaint that there is nothing for them to do, and nowhere for them to go, is something that young people have been stating, time and time again, over the decades. Music, and the arts in general, is something which young people become passionately involved in. It is a fantastic way for youngsters to develop socially, getting them participating in group activities, travelling abroad... there are so many opportunities. I think this project can only encourage this further.

 

I do believe that business plans have to be taken from a very pessimistic perspective, to err on the safe side, and if that is the approach that they are usually reasonably realistic - if you take a worst-case scenario it is most likely to turn out that way! However, personally, I think that £80K per year is an investment with returns which are, although difficult to put a "price" on, worthwhile. Public money has always been contributed into projects which appeal to very narrow groups of people, with specialised interests (think of any club who've had premises built for them, and need ongoing subsidy), and although funded by the many for the benefit of the few, this is a principle which has always been accepted, and rarely resented by the wider community. Music and the arts in general unarguably appeal to a vast range of the population, compared to most specialist interests, so I personally think that it is worthy of such funding.

 

No-one wants a "white elephant", or anything which is going to whittle away our childrens' nest-egg, but, taking even the most pessimistic figures, I believe that it is a figure worth spending, in consideration of the likely benefits.

 

And as Marvin has pointed out, not a penny of it comes out of our council tax, so what are we all arguing about anyway?

 

I sat "on the fence" about this venue for a while. Many years ago I thought it was exactly what Shetland needed, and it didn't happen. Then I thought, "hm, downloads, home cinema, the garrison's doing a good job, maybe Clickimin is all we need", but having read the full debate on this forum, which has been most informative, I am now persuaded that it is very much a good thing, and I give it my full support.

 

I understand the concerns of local businesses, and if there is a threat to them then it is vital to avoid damaging livelihoods, but personally I think that, as this venue will be built in Lerwick rather than "out in the sticks", that it will only attract more business to town pubs rather than less, with pre and post "gig" drinking likely (this has proven to be the case at similar projects elsewhere). Hopefully the "outreach" element will help stimulate good nights out in the wilds too, where the real fun is had anyway

[petergear]

Mind you, and not meaning to sound like an alarmist loony, but I do think that with rising sea levels, if it's going to be built at the North Ness, we'll end up sitting through performances in wir rubber boots, snorkels at hand. Is there an alternative site?

[Guest Anonymous]

welli have it that it was booked a month before and thought of the month b4 that - so i think your wrong!

 

Not sure of your point here but as I say I'm not a cinema expert. However here's a couple of personal observations.

 

Breakback Mountain was showing in Glasgow when I was there in mid-Jan and it only came here last week.

 

I saw Walk the Line about 6 weeks ago on the mainland - then I saw it again on a plane while I was travelling about a month back.......its only here next time around. Good enough for me though as I will see it again then.....great film!!!!

 

And sadly we dont even get all the top films here. I have been waiting to see Wolf Creek, a fairly high profile film, which was also showing in Glasgow in Jan, but to the best of my knowledge it's not been here yet

 

Dont get me wrong Film Mobile Scotland and the Garrison do a great job under the circumstances but you can only do so much and show so many films on a once-a-monthy cycle.

 

Sometimes we get the films early sometimes I suspect its about par for the course with other local cinemas - which is still pretty acceptable for those of us that dont have the option of seeing the film any other way - until the DVD comes out of course.

 

Somebody highlighted the improving quality of pirate DVD's in an earlier comment. I seriously hope we never see those as a serious competitor (as they seemed to imply they might become) or a valid reason for not having an official entertainment facility in Shetland. Shame on them for that!!!! If that were the case there would be no industry left to debate anyway.

 

Sure Harry Potter was an amazing coup but "one swallow don't make a summer" as they say.