Mareel - Cinema & Music Venue

[DavieG]

Davie - there's still a crucial issue to be addressed in regard to the public consultation here. That is, the cost.

 

The original 'survey' simply asked people whether they'd like a cinema and music venue. That was a few years back now. The current discussion is around the cost of the venue and whether that's justifiable.

 

You can't answer that point by bandying about notional figures of uptake. The fact of the matter is, that Ron Inglis 'survey' didn't address this issue and it's the one that's currently generating most debate.

 

The fact that you think that even if a referendum showed the majority of public opinion were against it - no matter how you couch it in terms of feasibility - that it should be built in any case is hardly a wholehearted embrace of the democratic process.

 

 

 

Ron Inglis initial feasibility study and report could hardly be construed as simply asking people if they wanted a new facility. It was an extremely large and comprehensive document that looked at the ovedrall feasibility of such a venue based on public demand and vision, existing provision, future potential etc etc. If we'd just needed to ask a question as you seem to imply I would like to think we would have hardly needed a renowed 'expert' in this particular field to have done that for us.

 

To cut a long story short this fairly mjaor piece of work then formed into the final report and first business plan which of course indicated it would potentially make a slight profit. A number of us, including the lottery when we made the first formal application to them, thought this to be a bit optimistic based on our own personal experiences, although we had some input to it of course and respected many of the findings of the consultants.

 

This then resulted in the fully revisited business plan which shows a possible £80,000 deficit but also a 20% swing in both directions (which all 'experts' agree is more than generous) This then of course shows potentially an even greater loss or indeed a potential profit.

 

The feasibility study and all the additonal reports, business plans etc where then fully considered and debated by the council, with a view to their existing financial position, demand, future needs and potential, all sorts of additional drivers, potential private provision and many other factors, and a decision made on this. So I believe its inaccurate to say that the potential for it requring funding is anything new.....they knew this would probably be likely from the outset but also had to weigh up the other economic, social and development factors and decide if, given any possible deficit, this was still money well spent in terms of cultural, social, educational and economic development.

 

Of course the whole project also had to be fully evaluated by the lottery board and their appointed 'experts' and stand up to their scruitiny too, so it was not just limited to local evaluation. I doubt if the lottery would have given £2.2 million if any report had simply asked "do you want one?" or the business plan inachievable in their professional opinion.

 

You may also be interested to know that Ron Inglis remains involved to this day and has been throughout - especially with the blessing of the lottery people in this respect.

 

Correct me if I am wrong but surely evaluated figures of potential uptake and usage do tie into any business plan and any associated cost, income etc that equates from this. This 'cost' of course then has to be evaluated again wider issues such as indirect economic benefits (these dont all come thorugh the door of the venue you know) social benefits, rural benefits, tourism benefits, benefits to young people, population retention and attraction, developmental benefits, cultural identity etc.

 

Its not just all about potential profits or costs in a monetary sense as we have continually tried to demonstrate.

 

As to the ongoing referendum debate. I'm sorry but I'm all for the democratic process where it fully applies. I think many now agree however that the old and simple 'first past the post' method of yesteryear is not entirely democratic either (especially if the 'divide' is by very few votes) and that proportional representation of some kind or another is one alternative.

 

In this particular context of course I would accept it would cause concern if there were a large % against it but that does not necessarily mean it would not be well used and successful if say a lesser % were for it. There will always be a percentage who will never use any 'service' provided, or so they will say at the outset. That does not mean they should never be delivered in my opinion. The general good and potential usage / benefit to the community also has to be fully weighed up, especially by those that have all the facts.

 

 

You might have a point though - a plebiscite might not be the best way to resolve that issue. There are a raft of research techniques that would be appropriate but first we need to separate the two questions of wheter the facility is feasible and whether it is desirable.

 

I hope I have demonstrated that these have been done and that 'fag packets' were never used, or indeed an option from the outset. Can I ask have you read Ron Inglis original report in full?

 

I'm ok with feasible but what do you mean by desirable? If its deemed feasible, taking into account all the local factors I've mentioned - not just direct profit and loss - surely that stands for a lot in terms of its eventual provision?

 

Even the sceptics in the council are not really questioning the process employed.

[DavieG]

[

Please read my post again and tell me where I suggested that kids were asked.

 

I suppose its all in the intrepretation - you said kids and football astroturf fields. I was simply suggesting that the survey did not cover just one section or age range of the community and was not limited to simplistic questions such as "do you want a new cinema"?

 

And what I did wonder was why, if the audience that night(s) had been happy with the existing provision and are so totally against it as you suggest, Ron Inglis didn't leave with a publicly delivered slap in his consultant like face and some pretty clear and damning information to "send him homeward to think again"

 

Hardly the place to seek out a safe 'yes' vote for a new facility I would have though!!!

 

Can I also ask if, in your survey that yeilded the alleged 20 - 0 against figure) whether you asked any musicians, young people or anyone else involved in the wider 'cultural' sector?

 

It would be interesting to know the actual profile of those interviewed - although I would assume you would say the public in general and of course I cant prove otherwise.

 

Just call me slightly sceptical if you will.

[Muppet]

I was coming round to the idea of the new venue nicely until I read this

 

 

This money is NOT COUNCIL MONEY

 

And I didn't need it shouted at me to take heed!

 

That is the very attitude that worries me and I suspect a lot of other people.

 

I dont really care whose name is on the cover of the bank book, the money still belongs to the people of Shetland. Even if your name is Donald Trump, money is a finite resource.

 

When the new yell sound ferries were ordered we were told we were going to save money if SLAP (or whoever) bought the ferries and leased them to the Council. Now apparently we're all going to save a fortune if the Council buys the ferries back. What's actually happening is that the revenue budget will look better, but it's all just a money go round with the Shetland peoples money.

 

I dont see £5 million as an unreasonable capital sum, or £80 000 a year to run it, but how many of us have seen projects and departments take on a life of their own and growing beyond all reason. Attitudes and statements like 'it's not Council money' or 'it's coming from a different budget' Do very little to restore my confidence that our money is being carefully managed. Quite the opposite in fact.

 

I'm not going to let a single post by Jo put me off though, I'm still prepared to keep an open mind for the moment.

[dB]

Okay, facts first. The new cinema and music venue is budgeted to cost 7.1 million, with 2.2 million of that coming from the lottery fund, leaving £4.9 million for the council to pay for.

Excuse me Jo but the only fact is that it's budgeted to cost £4.9million.

Another pertinent fact is in fact a question. How many council projects come in at or under budget?

 

So, the money for the building of the venue comes from a different pot of money than the one that pays for teachers or care staff for old folks homes or the essy cart.

Running costs - It has not yet been decided how exactly the cinema and music venue will be run, but it will be somewhere under the auspices of the Charitable Trust.

So why did Councillor Stove say in writing that shortfalls in running costs would come from the education budget?

 

The Charitable Trust administers money that comes originally from the Sullom Voe Oil Terminal site negotiations. That money is also invested, earns interest and provides lots of very important services for the people of Shetland, like the Amenity Trust, The Recreational Trust (all those leisure centres and swimming pools) and the Arts Trust. This money is NOT COUNCIL MONEY. It can't be spent on teachers or meals on wheels or other core council services.

When the dust settles it's still OUR money.

 

The present economic climate in Shetland not healthy - the fishing is knackered, the oil industry is in rapid decline and even with the building boom, there are still building companies going bankrupt. New industries and businesses and employment opportunities need to be created. Graduates and skilled workers need to be attracted to Shetland to work, train people and develop businesses.

 

The proposed cinema and music venue will contribute to that economic development through helping population retention, by providing training and learning opportunities to everyone throughout Shetland and by providing a professional stage for musicians, performers, song-writers, engineers, producers, film-makers, animation and CGI artists, etc. With the right equipment and techology, Shetland musicians will be able to play live to the whole world via the web & on radio, and the rest of the world will be able to see, hear and work with local musicians and film-makers.

All of the above is conjecture, not facts.

 

The dozens of feasibility studies that have been written over the years all recognise that, put simply, the cinema and music venue can cover their own costs

Where can I see these "dozens" of feasibility studies?

 

Partnerships with organisations like the Shetland College will also make studying music related courses in Shetland possible.

Is it not possible to study music related courses in Shetland just now?

 

It is less than 15 years ago that the first Shetland bands started releasing CDs. It does not take much imagination to see the possibilities in film-making, music videos & DVDs, and even feature film. Bear in mind that the Shetland music industry was valued at £6 million pounds a couple of years ago. Imagine what it could be worth in the future!

Yes imagine ????????

 

Personally, I can't wait to see hundreds of peerie bairns at the touring Balamory musical - it would pack the place for days. Or the all-night back-to-back showing of Alien, Aliens and Alien3. And instead of Shetlanders going clubbing in Orkney, we might even get a few Orkadians coming to Shetland for the weekend to clutter up the pubs and go to the venue.

The business proposal shows 237 musical events per annum. Your Balamory gig and a few club nights might or might not "pack the place" for a week or two. You've still got to "pack the place" another 220 times just to stay on target. Oh, and those bairns at Balamory have to spend £1400 per day, every day to hit the food/drink budget.

 

Finally, when the cinema and music venue opens in three and a half years time, all the Lerwick pubs, late night food outlets and taxis will be busier than ever so instead of whinging, they should realise that it is an opportunity for them to make even more money.

If everyone is at the CMV how will that make the pubs busier? There's only so much money out there.

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against a music venue per se (I love Shetland music and can't wait for the Folk Festival) , what I am against is the thought of so much of our money being spent on an over-the-top project that we can ill afford to run.

 

For a start we have a perfectly acceptable cinema at the Garrison. I know some folk find the seats a bit iffy but why not spend some money on improving the seats and the rake. With the rise of home cinema and the subsequent reduction in cinema attendances should we really be spending money on a full-time two screen cinema? I think the Garrison has it about right with films on four days a month. Going full time means a lot more showings to a lot less people (per showing). Unless for Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings the Garrison rarely sells out. Where are the extra 16000 customers going to come from?

 

Do we need a full-time music venue anyway? Can we afford it? Can we consider running it along the lines of the Garrison ie only open it when someone's actually going to use it, whether for performing, recording, teaching or rehearsing? The Garrison rarely sells out any of the few concerts they put on, where are all the extra customers coming from? The new place is proposing 237 musical events a year. There's one show a year guaranteed to be a sell-out, the excellent Fiery Sessions on Lerwick UHA day.

 

I know proponents of the venue claim that there has been a lot of public consultation. If there has it hasn't been over-advertised. I would like to see a lot more open public consultation before we commit ourselves to what could be another white elephant.

 

And please, can someone do a business plan that actually resembles something approaching reality? Over £500k p.a. income on food and drink? £1400 per day, every day. Not a snowball's chance.

[dB]

And what I did wonder was why, if the audience that night(s) had been happy with the existing provision and are so totally against it as you suggest

I suggested nothing of the kind. Please don't continually mis-quote me. It lends no credence to your arguments.

 

Can I also ask if, in your survey that yeilded the alleged 20 - 0 against figure) whether you asked any musicians, young people or anyone else involved in the wider 'cultural' sector?

Yes, yes and yes.

 

It would be interesting to know the actual profile of those interviewed - although I would assume you would say the public in general and of course I cant prove otherwise.

Sorry, I don't have time to profile all the people I speak to on a daily basis.

 

Just call me slightly sceptical if you will.

OK - you're slightly sceptical. But don't worry, I'm highly sceptical.

[DavieG]

The whole point that seems to be escaping you is that the proposed venue ISN'T a pub and never will be. I have no doubt it will have some busy nights and on occasion will exceed £1400 income daily. It will never do anything near those figures on a regular basis.

 

Hardly espcaped me, that has in fact been my point all along. However we have to roughly equate it against something. There is nothing like it in Shetland to equate it against - even the Garrison tuck shop as you seemed comfortable to do at one point in this thread.

 

Everyone will have their own ideas and they have that right. However this potential has been evaluated by lots of experienced consultants (not all bad either as some like to think), public and independant financiers and economists (including independant lottery people) etc etc who have looked at, worked in / with and evaluated such issues over many years and in many areas some of them similar to Shetland, and at some point we have to accept what these 'experts' tell us.

 

As I say you are entitled to your opinion but we must also look at the potnetial of how things could be, as well as how they stand at this particular moment.

 

The proposal isn't for a pub where people go to drink. It's for a cinema/music venue where people will go to watch a movie or a concert. To take in £1400 on refreshments day in day out is cloud cuckoo land.

 

Our point again......However, just one point that is fact. The sales of popcorn and pepsi alone now significantly outstrip the revenue taken in cinema tickets sales whatever the size of the cinema.

 

Yes food and drink will just be part of a larger equation that clearly shows (and nobody has really been able to ridicule Marvin's earlier post on this) that people will also want 'refreshment' services over and above the main reason for coming out, especially if they are readilly available / accessable. Have you ever gone into Safeways and just bought what you went in for? Not me!!!!

 

For instance you could put on any kind of a show for really young people during the day - regularly too - when you would normally be otherwise quiet - and not charge them the earth for a ticket or whatever. Some, or probably most, of their mams and dads will also go along of course and inevitably buy their bairns, not to mention themselves, something 'extra' that would hardly be at reduced cost even if the ticket were - not daylight robbery or exploitation as you will no doubt insinuate either, merely a question of choice.

 

So you are right its probably not fair to look at pubs in isolation as this kind of facility could potentially have a number of other fairly lucrative income streams that dont currently impact on pubs in Shetland. And this need not necessarily take away trade from other providers either - you are more likely to buy something when its in front of your face as you will be to go further looking for it.

 

However in terms of the pubs its clear that many folk like to end their night in a pub rather than a rapidly emptying 'concert hall' however good their service is. How many of you have stayed behind to drink in say the Glasgow Royal Concert Hall or the SECC in preference to a pub? Again not me. However you do inevitably use their services when you are there for the event, especially if someone else gets you involved in a 'round' and whether you want to or not. And on this occasion size doesn't matter - its all relevant.

 

Of course it will be swings and roundabouts. But lets face it, a regular audience of 200+ for many kinds of events in Shetland is far from unusual even in terms of current provision. And in terms of swings and roundabouts again this proposed facility can hold more than that on many occasions.

 

Just say they were all to spend an average of just £3 over and above their ticket price (surely not a wild guesstimation), especially when a 'refreshment service' of a reasonable scale and quality is 'stuck in their face' so to speak, well this would yield a lot in itself. And we know for a fact we can get bigger audiences still and often do.

 

And I'm sure many will spend a lot more than £3 too - I spent around £50 on what was an average Friday night out this weekend with a few friends (£8+ a round for three of us) and there wasn't even anything special on where we were. Then went out again on Sunday cause there was something on - country music night in the Legion with around 200+ there into the bargain. And I'm only guessing, and I could be wrong, but I supect they took in a lot more than £1400 I can tell you

 

And I will be personally honest - the only reason I dont spend more when I go to films in the Garrison is that the choice they offer is very limited to say the least. Sorry guys but rather than go without, or take whats on offer, I buy from somewhere else that offers a wider choice before I go - and yes quite often go for a pint afterwards. Again no option there even if I wanted it - so yes occasionally I / we do go home rather than head for the pub when just one end of night pint with friends you've met there might now and again be a better option - swings and roundabouts again.

 

And just think on. We've all heard how many of the pubs (sorry to bring them up again) are supposedly 'empty' during the week. Now consider that drink sales are the only real income stream in Shetland pubs and ask yourselves why none of them close during the week - in fact its not all that long ago they fought to entend their hours till one in the morning more or less every night - paying staff extra, additional heating and lighting costs etc etc.

 

Can't all be doom and gloom can it?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How much does the Clickimin take in with food and drink sales? You'll be doing well to overtake them.

[DavieG]

[How on earth would you know what kind of response I was hoping for? Making assumptions helps nobody.

 

I agree. Its just that personally speaking I find 20 - 0 (in other words 100% whatever the number presumably) to be a bit unlikely under normal circumstances that's all.

 

I've seen and been involved in some hot, even very one sided, debates and I can't recall ever finding figures to match those, especially if some of those debating, or presumably being questioned, are not in possession of all the facts. To have even a few "don't knows" would surely not be surprising

 

As I say I know of many musicians (and there are a lot in Shetland who strongly support this development as well as some who perhaps do not) and even more young people who do support this development, so I'm 'assuming' you did not ask many from those sectors if you were seeking a balanced viewpoint.

 

And lets be honest, in terms of balanced debate, I've not heard you say anything positive, even given the size and complexity of this particular subject. Even I see potential pitfalls - its not all clearcut scientific fact one way or the other I will admit.

[DavieG]

I dont see £5 million as an unreasonable capital sum, or £80 000 a year to run it, but how many of us have seen projects and departments take on a life of their own and growing beyond all reason. Attitudes and statements like 'it's not Council money' or 'it's coming from a different budget' Do very little to restore my confidence that our money is being carefully managed. Quite the opposite in fact.

 

You make very fair points as always. But should we just stop spending then and if so when would we be in a position to evaluate when they would get it right and what would be a totally risk free project?

[DavieG]

Another pertinent fact is in fact a question. How many council projects come in at or under budget?

 

Is that really relevant. Should we just stop everything and turn out the lights as an alternative then.

 

 

So why did Councillor Stove say in writing that shortfalls in running costs would come from the education budget?

 

Everyone loves this one. But as it turns out, whether he thought this could be the case or whether he was misconstrued, this cant happen, even if every councillor wanted it to happen (legally) so please sleep easy.

 

All of the above is conjecture, not facts.

 

Heavens above.....we've heard a lot of that from ever angle n the last few weeks lets be honest. It should be easier to disprove than prove so will someone jusst please come with the actual evidence. Its never been offered since this project started and that was hardly last week. See business plan section below again.

 

And do we always have to work on hard facts when trying to change things or come ahead whatever the sector and not look at possibilites, potential and try to have at least some vision that might just suit our particular community in the future rather than always settle for just the way things are........... forever!!!! Thanks God we've never done that in the past wether we get things wrong or not. It would be someplace if that were the case.....pass me my kishie please!!!!

 

Surely you would not deny that Shetland is a very creative and resourceful place that, culturally speaking, let alone anything else, has never stood still or been frightened to take a few chances in that respect. Everyone loves looking at things that have apparently failed but how about looking at some things that have worked, and continue to work, that seemed like 'gambles' at the time, especially now when the creative industries, tecnology and culture are, yes, officially recognised as the UK's leading growth industry.

 

 

Is it not possible to study music related courses in Shetland just now?

 

Not FE and higher education ones. Well very little apart from school to be honest. We 'export' all our students in this respect at the moment whether it be creative music making, music business, music technology or whatever in terms of the creative industries.

 

 

Yes imagine ????????

 

Well any better thoughts in that respect? If, as you say, in this post you "love Shetland music" why take such a derogatory attitude? You may think its being smart to be facitious in this respect dB but without any real cash inputs or true support of any kind over the years, well ever really, Shetland music is still purported to be annually worth £2 directly to the local economy and when you take everything else into consideration its worth around £6 - hardly peanuts. To suggest that it cant grow still further is bizarre or you're a better economist than those who believe otherwise.

 

And just for the record music is the third largest (or possibly fourth depending on who who believe) industry, especially in terms of export, in the UK.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against a music venue per se (I love Shetland music and can't wait for the Folk Festival) , what I am against is the thought of so much of our money being spent on an over-the-top project that we can ill afford to run.

 

Hmmmm!!!!

 

For a start we have a perfectly acceptable cinema at the Garrison. I know some folk find the seats a bit iffy but why not spend some money on improving the seats and the rake. With the rise of home cinema and the subsequent reduction in cinema attendances should we really be spending money on a full-time two screen cinema? I think the Garrison has it about right with films on four days a month. Going full time means a lot more showings to a lot less people (per showing). Unless for Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings the Garrison rarely sells out. Where are the extra 16000 customers going to come from?[/quote

 

More than well covered in previous answers I would like to think.

 

 

 

Do we need a full-time music venue anyway? Can we afford it? Can we consider running it along the lines of the Garrison ie only open it when someone's actually going to use it, whether for performing, recording, teaching or rehearsing?

 

How many times have we covered this to date?

 

The Garrison rarely sells out any of the few concerts they put on, where are all the extra customers coming from? The new place is proposing 237 musical events a year. There's one show a year guaranteed to be a sell-out, the excellent Fiery Sessions on Lerwick UHA day. [/quote

]

 

You seem to know, and think a lot about, and of, the Garrison (nothing wrong with that I might add) which I am beginning to 'assume' might not be a coincidence and again this issue has all been fully aired earlier in this thread.

 

Anyway back to business......SAT (as was) run the Fiery Sessions and that was something 'new' a few years ago. We were told "It will never work" by tons of folk - wrong time of day, too much on, too big a night ahead, people already spending lots of money at that time, folk need a breask during the day, musicians too busy already etc etc. Now it seems it couldn't have failed!!!!

 

Oh and just for the record we also attracted a whole 'new' audience for that event that nobody had even thought existed before or, if they did, has not been presumably considered 'worth much', profit wise at least. No not tourists - although they do come in their droves - but the more sprightly senior citizens of Shetland, especially those in residential care, who dont like to, or more importantly can't, go out late at night but love going to see a good show........... during the day.

 

And please, can someone do a business plan that actually resembles something approaching reality? Over £500k p.a. income on food and drink? £1400 per day, every day. Not a snowball's chance.

 

OK. You keep coming back to the so called flaws in the existing one, so I can only assume you have the necessary skills, so how about it?

 

Any finally is there any figure you personally would consider an acceptable 'cost' to have a facility such as this?

[DavieG]

Where can I see these "dozens" of feasibility studies?

 

Sorry my turn to be facitious but I hope I can be forgiven. You mean after all you have said you've not read any of them especially the main one? SIC Community Services for orders my friend!!!

[DavieG]

And what I did wonder was why, if the audience that night(s) had been happy with the existing provision and are so totally against it as you suggest

I suggested nothing of the kind. Please don't continually mis-quote me. It lends no credence to your arguments.

 

Sorry but you seemed to suggest (no doubt a misquote again on my part) that by gooing to the Garrison and asking questions there we were in some way loading the answers we were supposedly looking for...... but I stand corrected.

 

Can I also ask if, in your survey that yeilded the alleged 20 - 0 against figure) whether you asked any musicians, young people or anyone else involved in the wider 'cultural' sector?

Yes, yes and yes.

 

Sorry but I find that hard to believe. Others are well within their rights to disagree, just a personal opinion which I hope I am entitled too.

 

It would be interesting to know the actual profile of those interviewed - although I would assume you would say the public in general and of course I cant prove otherwise.

Sorry, I don't have time to profile all the people I speak to on a daily basis.

 

Not even a rough idea? And again I 'assume' that you are incensed enough by this issue to spend a fair bit of time on it, apparently enough to spend your time at work questioning folk you meet about it in fairly large numbers, so a bit extra effort to note the kind of people you speak to might help us. If you are meeting them through your job, as I assume you are, then you should know this automatically anyway. Sorry to labour this but if you are going to make strong statements please dont get annoyed if we ask you to back them up somehow.

 

As such all I'm saying is that, from our point of view, it would even be good to know, or even get an inkling, of what you do on a daily basis so that some of us involved in this process can get some idea if it has any 'formal' credibility. You are very much entitled to ask anyone you want what you want of course, but if you are to present that as credible evidence to be considered some form of proof would surely be necessary.All our documentation in the feasibility study is completed in this fashion - so why not the 'anti' protest.

 

We have been accused of "not consulting" so often throughout this debate, but when I ask what I believe to be a very fair question, through this forum, which as far as I'm concerned is surely part of the ongoing consultation process, then you wont give me a straight answer. You cant have it both ways.

 

Just call me slightly sceptical if you will.

OK - you're slightly sceptical. But don't worry, I'm highly sceptical.

 

Well that's you're right. Equally you cant just expect everyone to roll over and accept it though.

[NewMagnie]

You might have a point though - a plebiscite might not be the best way to resolve that issue. There are a raft of research techniques that would be appropriate but first we need to separate the two questions of wheter the facility is feasible and whether it is desirable.

 

I hope I have demonstrated that these have been done and that 'fag packets' were never used, or indeed an option from the outset. Can I ask have you read Ron Inglis original report in full?

 

I'm ok with feasible but what do you mean by desirable? If its deemed feasible, taking into account all the local factors I've mentioned - not just direct profit and loss - surely that stands for a lot in terms of its eventual provision?

 

Even the sceptics in the council are not really questioning the process employed.

 

Actually, I'm not sure that you have. I haven't looked at the Ron Inglis report since 2002 and to be fair, I sat and listened to his presentation rather than pore over the thing in what you might call compulsive detail. What I do remember though is that it made unreasonable assumptions about uptake and demonstrated a poor understanding of how Shetland's geography and transport infrastructure would support the CMV.

 

I'm glad you're with me on the feasibility front. I'm not happy that anyone has established whether there's a realistic market and I'd love to see some credible research done on that.

 

As far as desirable goes - its very simple. If the majority of the population don't want to see money spent on this then there opinion has to be taken heed of. It's not simply a case of naysaying, there seems to be a body of opinion that many of the vaunted positive outcomes of this project could be more realistically achieved through expenditure on rather more prosaic projects.

[Frankie]

I don't go to the Garrison to watch films but I'm sure I'll go to the new Cinema and Music Venue, and many people I've spoken to say the same.

[dB]

I don't go to the Garrison to watch films but I'm sure I'll go to the new Cinema and Music Venue, and many people I've spoken to say the same.

 

 

That's your right of course but can I ask why?

[dB]

Another pertinent fact is in fact a question. How many council projects come in at or under budget?

 

Is that really relevant. Should we just stop everything and turn out the lights as an alternative then.

 

As a ratepayer I would consider it extremely relevant. All I'm consistently asking for is to see some realistic figures. Thank you for confirming that you consider it ok to run over budget on council projects. Does your flippant approach to matters fiscal include running costs?

 

 

So why did Councillor Stove say in writing that shortfalls in running costs would come from the education budget?

 

Everyone loves this one. But as it turns out, whether he thought this could be the case or whether he was misconstrued, this cant happen, even if every councillor wanted it to happen (legally) so please sleep easy.

 

So what other incorrect pronouncements has he and other councillors come with on this subject. How about "income from tourists will easily pay the running costs". You keep asking me for hard evidence. Where's the hard evidence to back up unquantifiable statements like that?

 

All of the above is conjecture, not facts.

 

Heavens above.....we've heard a lot of that from ever angle n the last few weeks lets be honest. It should be easier to disprove than prove so will someone jusst please come with the actual evidence. Its never been offered since this project started and that was hardly last week. See business plan section below again.

 

And do we always have to work on hard facts when trying to change things or come ahead whatever the sector and not look at possibilites, potential and try to have at least some vision that might just suit our particular community in the future rather than always settle for just the way things are........... forever!!!! Thanks God we've never done that in the past wether we get things wrong or not. It would be someplace if that were the case.....pass me my kishie please!!!!

 

jusst please come with the actual evidence

And do we always have to work on hard facts

 

Which do you want DG, evidence or no evidence, yes or no? A peerie bit of consistency would help.

 

Is it not possible to study music related courses in Shetland just now?

 

Not FE and higher education ones. Well very little apart from school to be honest. We 'export' all our students in this respect at the moment whether it be creative music making, music business, music technology or whatever in terms of the creative industries.

 

I think that's a disgrace. But I am unsure how the new CMV is going to make such a difference.

 

 

Yes imagine ????????

 

Well any better thoughts in that respect? If, as you say, in this post you "love Shetland music" why take such a derogatory attitude? You may think its being smart to be facitious in this respect dB but without any real cash inputs or true support of any kind over the years, well ever really, Shetland music is still purported to be annually worth £2 directly to the local economy and when you take everything else into consideration its worth around £6 - hardly peanuts. To suggest that it cant grow still further is bizarre or you're a better economist than those who believe otherwise.

 

And just for the record music is the third largest (or possibly fourth depending on who who believe) industry, especially in terms of export, in the UK.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against a music venue per se (I love Shetland music and can't wait for the Folk Festival) , what I am against is the thought of so much of our money being spent on an over-the-top project that we can ill afford to run.

 

Hmmmm!!!!

 

For a start we have a perfectly acceptable cinema at the Garrison. I know some folk find the seats a bit iffy but why not spend some money on improving the seats and the rake. With the rise of home cinema and the subsequent reduction in cinema attendances should we really be spending money on a full-time two screen cinema? I think the Garrison has it about right with films on four days a month. Going full time means a lot more showings to a lot less people (per showing). Unless for Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings the Garrison rarely sells out. Where are the extra 16000 customers going to come from?[/quote

 

More than well covered in previous answers I would like to think.

 

So that door is firmly closed then?

 

 

 

Do we need a full-time music venue anyway? Can we afford it? Can we consider running it along the lines of the Garrison ie only open it when someone's actually going to use it, whether for performing, recording, teaching or rehearsing?

 

How many times have we covered this to date?

 

And that one?

 

 

The Garrison rarely sells out any of the few concerts they put on, where are all the extra customers coming from? The new place is proposing 237 musical events a year. There's one show a year guaranteed to be a sell-out, the excellent Fiery Sessions on Lerwick UHA day. [/quote

]

 

You seem to know, and think a lot about, and of, the Garrison (nothing wrong with that I might add) which I am beginning to 'assume' might not be a coincidence and again this issue has all been fully aired earlier in this thread.

 

Another door closed?

 

 

Anyway back to business......SAT (as was) run the Fiery Sessions and that was something 'new' a few years ago. We were told "It will never work" by tons of folk - wrong time of day, too much on, too big a night ahead, people already spending lots of money at that time, folk need a breask during the day, musicians too busy already etc etc. Now it seems it couldn't have failed!!!!

 

Oh and just for the record we also attracted a whole 'new' audience for that event that nobody had even thought existed before or, if they did, has not been presumably considered 'worth much', profit wise at least. No not tourists - although they do come in their droves - but the more sprightly senior citizens of Shetland, especially those in residential care, who dont like to, or more importantly can't, go out late at night but love going to see a good show........... during the day.

 

OK DG - say the Fiery Sessions had been a flop. What if absolutely no one bought a ticket? What would the cost have been to the public purse? Almost (relatively) nothing compared to the cost of building and running the CMV. The Fiery Sessions works because it's on UHA day, because it's only on once a year, because the town is packed and let's face it, because there's not really a helluva lot to do once you've seen the galley and the bill. And it's an excellent show may I add before I'm accused of negativity again.

My point is, with the Garrison already there, you and others can try different things and if they work, great. If they're a flop, learn from it and try something else. At least it won't cost you millions to learn.

The business plan proposes 237 musical events annually. I cannot see how anyone can say that these will all be busy, or at least busy enough to justify the costs.

Why don't you, over the next year, put on 237 events in venues that already exist in Lerwick, count the ticket sales and food/drink income and then do a realistic business plan?

 

And please, can someone do a business plan that actually resembles something approaching reality? Over £500k p.a. income on food and drink? £1400 per day, every day. Not a snowball's chance.

 

OK. You keep coming back to the so called flaws in the existing one, so I can only assume you have the necessary skills, so how about it?

 

What? Do another business plan? No problem but I'll be looking for a fee

I don't need to be an economist to know that £500k annually on food and drink is about £400k too high. I've been involved in the licensed trade on and off for over 30 years and have a reasonable idea about annual turnover, taking the good times with the bad. Your business plan suggests to me that you envisage only good times, occasionally interrupted by great times. That's why I keep asking for a reality check.

 

Any finally is there any figure you personally would consider an acceptable 'cost' to have a facility such as this?

Believe it or not the cost doesn't bother me nearly as much as the figures in the business plan. If I thought for a moment that the business plan was anywhere near reality I would say go for it. I think an £80k running cost deficit would be just about acceptable. I worry that it's going to be many times that.