Death Penalty

[Para Handy]

Saying that then, would you be prepared to administer the torture you are advocating?

 

If you put a bullet in to the back of some ones head. How can you say you tortured some one? Fjool

[Fjool]

^ The comment you've quoted is in response to Twerto arguing that "hanging's too good for 'em" and that criminals should be made to suffer as much as possible. (Read back up a bit and you'll see where this sprang from).

 

While I disagree with the death penalty, I disagree even more with torturing people for the sake of making them suffer.

[ArabiaTerra]

Styles wrote:

What if you had a child and it was taken by a sadistic pedophile. Tortured, raped and killed.

 

What? A child like the mother of those failed bombers you want tortured, raped and killed had? Whats the difference if the state does it? And when the State makes a mistake (as it is guaranteed to do)? What then? What do you say to that mother?

 

The death penalty is wrong! It is murder.

[Michael]

My stance on the matter is yeah, maybe people who commit the worst crimes deserve to die, but doesn't it show the difference between most of society and them by not killing them? Just because they've taken someone's life, doesn't mean they should be killed too. I mean if the law says "don't kill" (although i know probably more complicated than that, what with self defence and all that quite rightly, i'm just simplifying it for my point) then that should apply to every person including those who've commited such offences.

 

If the only reason they "should" be killed is to redress the "natural order of things" isn't that outweighed by the grief it would cause to the family of the murderer or them themselves? Killing someone to mantain order is hollow in itself, it wont undo the crime or wont relieve grief. Surely doing the thing which is most positive for everyone (keeping them locked up for life so that the murderer/whatever can't re-offend and so their family can still see them or whatever) is better than doing exactly what the guilty party is being punished for? Just my thoughts

[Twerto]

^That's really missing the point. You are the one promoting torture and, as you said, "Do not impose on others what you yourself do not desire".

 

Are you prepared to torture people?

 

It not missing the point at all. You make your rubbish but yet you expect someone else to take it to the dump for you. little difference, a job is a job.. all that changes is your personal opinion of that job.. it is not as if this job doesn't already exist.

 

Personally I wouldn't want to be the person to torture. but as you previously stated before I'm not that kind of character.

 

Personally I feel that current term of deterrents are crap and do not deter enough, I feel society has gone to far in the direction of mollycoddling the dangerous.

 

People keep bringing up the topic of what if someone is charged wrong with a crime. i used to think this is enough to sway me against some form of stronger punishment.. but when you have crimes such as people willing to blow up hundreds of people. and are caught at the scene ( as in what happened at Glasgow airport ) it wouldn't play on my conscience at all if something nasty happened to them. if there is doubt then nothing should be done.. weather something is done wrongfully by the Goverment/court system then that comes down to your trust in your Goverment/court system.

 

Torture could come in many ways.. from rock breaking to sitting in a room full with white noise.. some might even think pulling nails out is ok.. not me personally.. but as i stated above if someone is prepared to try to kill hundreds of innocents then i wouldn't batter an eyelash if it did get done to them.

[Styles]

^^^^I totally agree with you Twerto.

[Fjool]

You make your rubbish but yet you expect someone else to take it to the dump for you.

I would have no moral objection to working as a dustbin man. It might not be my ideal job, but it wouldn't make me sick to my stomach to be involved in the process.

 

I, personally, would never expect others to do a job which I wasn't prepared to do myself. As you say, don't impose upon others what you don't want for yourself.

 

What kind of person would torture others merely to make them suffer? Torturing to extract information is one thing; torturing just because you believe they should suffer is something entirely different.

 

Do you seriously think that someone prepared to kill themselves by burning is going to be put off by the fact that they might be made to break some rocks? (although I don't consider this to be torture as I understood we were discussing it) They're not expecting to survive at all, let alone worrying that someone might make them listen to a bit of white-noise.

[Evil Inky]

Personally I feel that current term of deterrents are crap and do not deter enough, I feel society has gone to far in the direction of mollycoddling the dangerous.

 

What evidence do you base your opinion on ? The UK has one of the highest incarceration rates in Western Europe, and the Home Office is predicting that the prison population is going to rise from the current total of roughly 80,000 to 110,000 by 2010, driven mostly by harsher sentencing. ( Thanks, Wikipedia! ). It doesn't sound like much mollycoddling is going on to me.

[Twerto]

I don't understand how having the highest incarceration rate in western Europe and having a growing prison populations proves we have high enough deterrent's?

 

For those who choose the crime life.. i don't see how being kept fed, watered and possible having "easier access to drugs inside than out of prison" ( thanks BBC news ) is much of a deterrent.

[Styles]

^^^ Folk I know who have been at prison have no fear about going back except for the boredom.

If it was made far more harsh i think a lot of them would never want to go back.

If I was planning to kill someone the thought that i could be caught and be killed instead of prison for some many years if i behaved is far more likley to put me off.

[Evil Inky]

I don't understand how having the highest incarceration rate in western Europe and having a growing prison populations proves we have high enough deterrent's?

Prison sentences are generally shorter, and fewer people are sent to prison in other European countries. This suggests one of two things: either the population of the UK is simply more criminally-minded than the rest of Europe, or harsh sentencing doesn't curb crime rates to extent that many people believe it does.

[Evil Inky]

If I was planning to kill someone the thought that i could be caught and be killed instead of prison for some many years if i behaved is far more likley to put me off.

 

Or it could make you more determined not to be caught. If you're going to be executed for the original murder anyway, what's to stop you shooting the policeman who catches you disposing of the body ?

 

I understand that most murders are actually committed in the heat of the moment, when the killer is unlikely to be weighing up the relative merits of a long prison sentence versus execution.

[Fjool]

Styles, Twerto: So you're saying that you're quite ready to contemplate murder because you're not scared enough of prison?

 

Do you think people who commit murder are thinking "Ach well, it's only prison. I'll get me a good feed and some quality time in front of the TV if I kill this guy. Let's go for it"?

 

Are you happy with the idea of going to prison yourself? I doubt you'd find it as comfortable as you seem to think it is.

[Medziotojas]

It's all a question of morality, not law. If your moral code takes precedence over the law, then you should be prepared for the consequences.

 

This also counts as far as revenge/vengeance is concerned.

 

I would go a stage further and say that I believe you can breach your morals purely through the thought process, and this also doesn't come without karmic retribution in some form.

 

It would be interesting to here some input from somebody who's actually done time. A lot of "neds" become institutionalised at a young age in this country and they find it very difficult to adapt to everyday life on their release.

 

On the other hand, I know I would hate every second, of every minute, of every hour, etc. if I ever had to do time. I'm sure it's not all Playstations and pool, or 3 course meals and opium sessions while you sit around and discuss your release and imminent re-entry. I know I would find it very hard to cope if I had my freedom stripped.

 

I for one do not want to go, and I'm sure (God forbid) if I ever do, I will doubly not want to go back again!

[Fjool]

A perspective on prison systems from someone who has been inside:

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/criminaljustice/story/0,,1562802,00.html

 

Last week, I met the man dubbed "America's toughest sheriff". Joe Arpaio, sheriff of Maricopa county, Arizona ... Arpaio is not about to apologise for his methods. What did he think his chain gangs achieved, I asked him. "When good folks drive by, I want mothers to be able to say to their kids: 'Look at those bad people, honey. Behave or you'll end up just like them.'" Yet he admitted that arrests in Maricopa county remained steady at what to me sounds an alarming 300 a day, and that he had no evidence that his policies, many of which have been condemned by Amnesty International, had any reductive effect on reoffending rates. As far as I could tell, his only justification for the systematic humiliation and maltreatment of prisoners was the fact that he was responding to public will.

 

I'm not convinced of the merits of Sheriff Arpaio's way. Last year, after serving 20 years of a life sentence in prison, I was released on parole. After a passage of two full decades, which took me from a standpoint of self-loathing and worthlessness to a position where I can look myself in the mirror and feel a measure of self-respect, I know that he is wrong.

 

It is worth reading the full article as I've had to select bits rather too hastily and probably haven't represented it properly.

 

i don't see how being kept fed, watered and possible having "easier access to drugs inside than out of prison" ( thanks BBC news ) is much of a deterrent.

If your only aims in life are to be fed, watered and a steady supply of drugs then your standards are pretty low. To me those things wouldn't make up for the fact that I can no longer spend time with my family, play on my computer or guitar, go for a drive, watch a sunset, swim in the pool, etc.

 

That anyone might consider prison an easy option is a failing of society, not the judicial system.

 

(Don't forget that you have to keep any prisoner fed and watered, even those you plan to torture. The drugs aspect is a separate issue - the prison doesn't provide these deliberately)