Diacritical marks and their usage

[DePooperit]

A'm no en t'rool, du sies, fir mie æin Shætlin is dattin aaldfarrant, an Saanis wis ay a skaar diffrint. Da Skaandiks bed on dær, ati'da soond system. Du'll still fin dem dær da day.

 

Bit I tink da wy'at I wirk hæs a kynd a'validitie, joost kaas'it is kynda soond-bæst an fonetik. I widna makk onie græt klems fir'it as bein ryght, whitivir dat myght entæil. Hit's joost whit fiels ryght ta me, du kens - an hit's braalie æsie - simplistik, du myght say.

 

I wid lippin an hoop'at iddir fokk wid fiel dat wy aboot dir æin 'dyalekt' iswiel.

 

I'm no sayin at phonetic (although hit canna be properly phonetic ithoot da IPA - an bi dat I duina mean India Pale Ale!) writin duisna hae valeedity. Hit haes a certain purpose ithin a certain context. Bit hit tends ta be writer-orientatit redder as reader-orientatit, an ta depend on da reader ta pit in da effort. Dis is somethin at maest readers is no prepared ta dui - meanin at dat kind o writin is fine as lang as you duina lippen dat mony fock ta read it.

 

I'm still no fairly shoer whit 'Skaandiks' is. Du laekly couldna gie examples, wi whit wirds dey crop up in? I couldna follow whit du sed afore aboot Å an da laek ithoot examples o wirds. I'm awaar o da UI/Ö vowel, of coorse, an hits Wast Side diphthongised variant. Bit dis is rarely a reflex o da sam kind o a soond in Norn. Maestly, hits da Scots UI vowel - in wirds laek 'guid' an da laek - at's become 'i' an 'ee' soonds in maest kinds o Mainland Scots, bit is lived on in Shaetland - nae doot wi a Nordic quality, aain tae da fact at da Norn spaekers at learned ta spaek da kind o Scots at becam Shaetlan spak it wi a Norn accent.

 

Shaetlan haes some pronunciation characteristics at seems ta be nedder Scots or Norse. Wan is da wye at a dose o vowels - a, e, i, o, u, ae, aa, ai - changes dir pronunciation afore voiced consonants. Dis duisna happen in Scots, or in ony Nordic language as far as I'm awaar. Hit's a Shaetlan strynd, native ta Shaetlan, an hit lies ahint a lock o da regional variations at we'r aa wint wi - da Burra 'wetch' an Wast Side 'waal', for example, as weel as da Nort Isles 'ee' pronunciation o wirds laek 'staen' an 'haem' at Lola mentions. If we'r interestit in Shaetlan, I tink we wid need ta study Shaetlan's ain strynds redder as tinkin aboot foo hit relates ta idder languages sae muckle.

 

Ironically, maybe, ene o da real, genuine Nordic strynds in Shaetlan is ene at nearly naebody, aless mesell an Rhoda Bulter, ever seems ta nottice, or at laest try ta shaa in writin. Dat's da lang 'ee' , 'oo' an 'oe' soonds in wirds laek (as I wid spell dem) 'neib', 'oub' an 'roed'. (Rhoda hed a wye o spellin dem 'neebe', 'oobe' an da laek.) Dis is genuine Norse strynds at derives fae lang vowel soonds in Aald Norse wirds (hni/pa for 'neib', for example - again da i-acute is no i da character buttons). Hit wid seem at dey'r owerleukit juist caase dae'r nae obvious wye o representin dem in edder English spellin, or wi da Scandinavian ligatures an diacritics. In fact, dat seems ta be a general tendency in Shaetlan spellin - ta represent things at idder languages (whidder English or Nordic) represent, bit ta ignore strynds at's important in Shaetlan, bit at dae'r nae reddy-med wye ta shaa. Nae doot dis stems fae da fact at hit's regairded as dialect redder as a language wi hits ain strynds.

[ex-isle]

'Skaandiks' is mie æin shorthaand fir 'Scandinavian vowels', as dey wir kaad in a tæl Joannie Graham telt t'me, aboot da tym'at Jakobsen's Dictionary kam oot in æghtie-fyv. His wis kynda queriein me ösin 'ø'.

 

Dan æ day I spakk wie'im, he telt me he'd hæd a viesiet fæ a lass reserchin fir a PhD, an she'd kum apo a storie sumwy aboot a edict'at kam oot fæ da board in Edinburgh ta aa da skølmestirs ati'da isles - dat dey wir ta 'stamp out the Scandinavian vowels'.

 

Dis lass hæd fun da tæl a'whit happint in Saanis. Hit måst a'bien ati'da tym a' 'Aald Robbie' Jiemsin a'Kruisdæl, him'at biggit da skøl. Wiel, akoardin t'dis lass, da Saanis skøl wis aboot da onlie æn whaar da fokk sed no. An I doot wi 'Aald Robbie', bein dattin a Skaandinavian skollir himsel, he widda stød wie dem. Bit dær du is - historie hæs a ræsin fir wir diffir.

 

Bit t'tak up dy point about 'ø' bein da Skots 'ui' - first ava, vowils dönna mukkil heed national boundaries; mær impÃ¥rtintlie (joost døin jun t'annoy you aa noo) d'ir næ waant a'Skaandiks in ati'Jakobsen, an d'ir no ati'Skots wirds, bit d'ir Norn. Ão dey myght bie laang sib t'Skots, as du wid ikspekt wie d'ir kommon Germanik røt.

 

Å: I did gie an iksampil whan I sed hit wis opin - åpin. Da argiemint fir adoptin'it is verie apt fir lola's Unst 'au'. Da 'haand' (Saanis), bekums 'hånd'/haund/hawnd' (Unst an as Skyumpie pounts out, sooth aboot Cunningburgh, an dat wy.) Hit's a similir vowil as I wid hæ in 'most' - måst or 'post' - påst. I kynda læk it - hit's no æn A'm evir wirkit wie afoar.

[DePooperit]

 

Å: I did gie an iksampil whan I sed hit wis opin - åpin. Da argiemint fir adoptin'it is verie apt fir lola's Unst 'au'. Da 'haand' (Saanis), bekums 'hånd'/haund/hawnd' (Unst an as Skyumpie pounts out, sooth aboot Cunningburgh, an dat wy.) Hit's a similir vowil as I wid hæ in 'most' - måst or 'post' - påst. I kynda læk it - hit's no æn A'm evir wirkit wie afoar.

 

Weel, dat's wan example dan. I tak it ta mean at du wid oese da letter Ã… for da oppen vowel soond at you git in wirds laek whit I wid spell 'oppen', an for da Nort Isles an dat pronunciation o wirds laek 'haand' as 'haund'.

 

Noo, dis is a Scandinavian spellin richt aneoch. Bit du seemed ta be sayin at dis 'Skaandiks' wis Scandinavian soonds at survives in Shaetlan, an implyin at dae wir maybe mair o dem in Sannis. I wid laek ta kaen whit shaas at dis is a Nordic soond, an whit shaas at hit's different fae da soond at we spell 'o'.

 

Laevin da Nort Isles pronunciation till laeter, I nottice at aa da wirds at du's quottit haes different English pronunciations fae Shaetlan enes, so dae'r certainly a feelin at you hae ta spell dem different fae 'open', 'must', 'most' an 'post'. Hoosumever, du's no quottit ony wirds laek 'slock', 'groff', 'loss' (verb, meanin 'lose'), etc, at certainly haes da sam oppen vowel soond in my spaek. Wid du spell dem aa wi yun letter tui?

 

Saecond, da Nort Isles 'haund' soond an dis 'oppen' soond is different phonemes. Da soond in 'oppen', 'posst' an da laek is certainly da O vowel, hooever hit's pronounced in Shaetlan or in different pairts o Shaetlan. Da English etymology shaas dis. An da Nort Isles 'au' soond is certainly da lang AA vowel, at in Scots is tradeetionally spelt 'au' an in Shaetlan as 'aa' or 'au'.

 

In da Nordic tongues, da letter Å staands for a phoneme, traditionally wi a equeevalent spellin o 'aa', derived (I tink) fae da Aald Norse lang à soond at you still see written in Icelandic an Faroese, anidder phoneme. Adoptin hit inta Shaetlan ta represent a parteecular pronunciation o twa different Shaetlan phonemes is no doein whit da Scandinavians duis ava. Dey'r representin da intrinsic strynds o dir languages, whaarby dis is emphasisin regional pronunciations at da expense o da underlyin strynds.

 

Noo, of coorse, dae'r naebody sayin at you canna write dis soonds ony wye at you laek. Bit oesin da sam spellin for twa different phonemes obscures da underlyin unity o da Shaetlan tongue. Bit dan, if you're writin dialect, redder as Shaetlan, wi an emphasis on representin da nuances o regional en even individual pronunciations, dan dat maybe duisna maiter.

 

BTW - O is no da onnly vowel at's lentened in dis wye in Shaetlan. So, typically, is A an E, in wirds laek 'bath' an 'greth'.

 

Ir dae ony mair examples?

 

PS - dis is a extract fae my website:

 

"Seemilarly, some fock fae plaeces whaar wirds laek taatie is sed ‘tawtie’ oeses spellins laek ‘totties’ an ‘maust’. Dae’r little differ atween a ‘aw’ an ‘o’ soond in dir dialects, sae dey mix dem up. Bit if taaties raelly hed a O phoneme hit wid be pronounced ‘o’ in Burra as weel as Cunningsburgh, an if da Shaetlan cognate o English must hed a AA phoneme, hit wid be sed ‘maast’ in Burra. Dis shaas at da spellins sood be taaties an most, or mosst, ta win awa fae association wi da English wird at means maest. (In mosst, da lang ‘aw’ soond is no caase hit’s a AA phoneme, hit’s caase ‘a’, ‘o’ an ‘e’ soonds tends ta be lentened (or draaled oot) afore ‘s’, ‘f’ an ‘th’. Hit taks comparison o da different dialects ta fin oot things laek dis.)"

[DePooperit]

Since dis treed is aboot diacritics (or 'sinderin marks' as you could caa dem), an seein at I fin mesel repeatin things at I'm written alreddy, I'm waled oot dis fae my website. I'm awaar at my idee at things sood be duin fae analysin an understaandin da subject first is 'modernist' redder as 'postmodernist', an hit could be at my idee at if you're spaekin aboot spellin Shaetlan you sood understaand whit you're spellin first haes naethin ta dui wi da purpose o writin dialect on dis forum or ony idder wye. Hooever I'm gaein ta paeste dis in onywye. Some o da italics an things is disappeared in da process an I canna git da method for doein dis on dis forum ta wirk reliably, so I'll juist laeve it da wye at it is.

 

For a mair technical description o Shaetlan soonds, dae'r da version o da International Phonetic Alphabet, adapted for Shaetlan, i da wirdlist o my Guid Unkens efter Mark, an da SAMPA version o dis on my website.

 

 

Da Shaetlan Vowel System.

 

Shaetlan haes hits ain vowel system. Dat is, hit’s no juist a variation o da English vowel system, hit’s a system o hits ain.

 

Shaetlan haes da followin vowels (my spellins, wi my variant spellins in brackets) no coontin diphthongs:

 

1. Short.

 

A - bat

E - set

I - bit

O - rot

U - but

AE - baet

EE (ie) - leet, scriech (I spell ie afore ‘ch’ as in ‘loch’ - contrast English screech)

OO - moot

UI - ruit

 

2. Lang.

 

AA - baak

AI (a-e) - bait, hate

EI - meid

OA (o-e) - voar, bore

OU (ooe) - roug (dat is, a haep o staens), pooer

OE - broel

 

 

Of coorse, dis vowels cood be spelled different wyes. For example, UI cood be spelled ü, an OE ö, or vice versa, or whitiver; an AA cood be spelled au, laek hit maestly is in Scots, or wi Nordic-laek spellins laek å or á. Da main point ta yock a had o, toh, is at vowels laek AA, AE an UI is juist as muckle vowels i dir ain richt as A E I O an U is. Shaetlan, laek maest Germanic languages, haes a lock mair vowel distinctions as Latin did, so we hae ta extend da Latin alphabet ta express dem, an dis is maestly duin edder bi diacritics, laek in Swedish (ö, ä, å, etc) an Faroese an Icelandic (á, ó etc) sometimes wi ligatures an da laek tui, laek in Norwegian (æ, ø, etc); or bi digraphs laek in English an Dutch (ee, oo, ie, ou, oe, etc); or bi a combination o dis methods. I oese digraphs juist caase dey’r aesier ta type on a English keyboard - oeser-freendliness agaen.

 

Anidder important point is at vowel lent in Shaetlan duisna juist mean at da sam vowel is sed langer. (Dis happens tui - for example, in my pronunciation, A, E an O vowels is sed langer afore ‘th’, ‘s’ an ‘f’ soonds - voiceless fricatives - bit dat’s a different thing fae a vowel at’s intrinsically lang.) Da lang vowel is actually a different vowel fae da short ene, an can potentially kerry a different meanin. Back is a different wird fae baak; baet is a different wird fae bait; an goat is a different wird fae got. Some o dis differs is da sam as in English (laek got, goat) an some is no. Dae’r no minimal pairs (dat is, pairs idderwyes identical laek got an goat) ta illustrate dis for aa da vowels, bit you can hear at da vowel in guid is a different vowel fae da ene in roed if you pronounce guid wi a lang vowel, an roed wi a short ene. Da sam wye, da ‘ee’ soond in need is shorter as da ene in meid, an da ‘oo’ soond in moot shorter as da ene in roug. AA, EI, OA etc is juist as muckle vowels in dir ain richt as A, I an O is. Hit’s juist da crubbitness o da Latin alphabet, an da fact at Shaetlan haes a different vowel system fae English, at maks dis less obvious as hit is in languages whaar dis is shaan i da spellin.

 

An while I mind, vowels can be assumed ta be lang at da end o a wird, sae dae’r nae need ta write brai insted o da fameeliar brae; dou insted o doo; or toe (wi da potential o confusion wi English toe an fameeliar spellins laek voe) redder as tui.

 

 

Vowel Mutation.

 

Anidder strynd o Shaetlan is whit I caa vowel mutation. Dis is da wye at certain vowels is aften sed different afore voiced an voiceless consonants. I caa dis da ‘hard’ an ‘saft’ soonds. Compare da followin, afore a voiceless (t) an voiced (d) consonant:

 

Vowel Hard , Saft

 

A - bat , bad

E - set , bed

I - sit , lid

O - rot , rod

U - but , bud

AE - haet , haed

AI - bait , saide (muckle piltick)

AA - baak , claag

 

You’ll nottice at I duina spell da ‘saft’ soonds ony different fae da ‘hard’ soonds (da wye at some fock wid write beyd insted o bed, for example). Dis is caase dis soond differs is juist phonetic - dey’r determined bi da followin consonant, an canna kerry meanin. Dey’r juist pairt o da Shaetlan accent. Mair as dat, dey vary a lock fae plaece ta plaece. For example, maest Shaetlan accents oeses da saft pronunciaton o A afore ‘g’ in wirds laek bag, bit i da Wast side (I believe) dey oese da hard pronunciation, sae dir wye o sayin ‘bag’ is mair laek a Scottish English ene. Da Burra ‘wesh’ ‘metch’ syndrome is aain tae da fact at Burra oeses da saft pronunciation o A afore ‘sh’ an ‘tch’, whaar idder dialects oeses da hard ene. An some dialects micht no hae different pronunciations for some o dis vowels ava. For dis raesons - da fact at dey canna kerry meanin, an da regional variabeelity - I duina shaa dis soond strynds in spellin.

 

Hit wid be possible ta shaa dis soond changes in spellin for specialised purposes - in a pronunciation guide, for example. Juist ta illustrate dis, I’m gaein ta shaa da saft pronunciation o every ene o dis soonds bi da twa-dot-abuin (‘Umlaut’) diacritic. I man emphasise twa things. First, I’m no recommendin dis as general spellin practice - juist for da sake o illustration. Saecond, da ö spellin in dis system is no pronounced da sam as hit is i da Shetland Dictionary. I represent dat soond wi ui (short) an oe (lang).

 

Vowel Hard Saft

 

A - bat , bäd

E - set , bëd

I - sit , lïd

O - rot , röd (English road - no pronounced laek roed!)

U - but , büd

AE - haet , häëd (variously ‘ey’, ‘ay’ an ‘ee’ in different plaeces)

AI - bait , säïde

AA - baak , clääg

 

If you say dis wirds ower, you’ll see (or redder, hear) whit da hard an saft pronunciations o dis wirds is in your ain dialect. In some dialects dae’ll be little differ atween da saft an hard pronunciations, an in idders dae’ll be a lock.

 

PS. Dis gies twa different possibeelities for oesin diacritics:

 

1. As equeevalents o idder spellins, eg: á insted o aa.

 

2. As a addeetion tae a basic, non-diacritic spellin - eg: ä ta shaa da mutatit vowel in a wird laek 'bäd'.

[/i]

[skyumpie]

A'm wi dee, Lola Boomboom! (But instead o 'dog from hell i dy

signature, foo aboot 'hund fae hell'?? A peerie bit mair alliteration!)

Widna hit be fine if da Shetland dictionary could hae some regional differences in spelling/ pronunciation (lik da examples du gied)? I wis amused at 'draawers' wis mair aesthetically plaesin is 'drauwers'!

An I most say I fin Depooperit's distinctions aboot da wird 'like' etc made göd sense tae me. Aa yon aboot phonemes. But I wid defend Ex-isle's richt ta ploo his ain furrow. A wikopaedia style dictionary exercise whaar / whaur we could aa pit in wir ain regional version? Noo dat wid be linguistic latitude. Voe micht fecht wi Vidlin an Waas wi MidWaas far less Sannis!

Hit's edder dat or a braaly simple version (lik da current dictionary) whaar we aa read da wird, ken whit hit means, but pronounce hit slichtly differently. We are da lucky.

[DePooperit]

A'm wi dee, Lola Boomboom! (But instead o 'dog from hell i dy

signature, foo aboot 'hund fae hell'?? A peerie bit mair alliteration!)

Widna hit be fine if da Shetland dictionary could hae some regional differences in spelling/ pronunciation (lik da examples du gied)? I wis amused at 'draawers' wis mair aesthetically plaesin is 'drauwers'!

An I most say I fin Depooperit's distinctions aboot da wird 'like' etc made göd sense tae me. Aa yon aboot phonemes. But I wid defend Ex-isle's richt ta ploo his ain furrow. A wikopaedia style dictionary exercise whaar / whaur we could aa pit in wir ain regional version? Noo dat wid be linguistic latitude. Voe micht fecht wi Vidlin an Waas wi MidWaas far less Sannis!

Hit's edder dat or a braaly simple version (lik da current dictionary) whaar we aa read da wird, ken whit hit means, but pronounce hit slichtly differently. We are da lucky.

 

Generally spaekin, da phonemes at I spaek aboot is da sam troo Shaetlan - dat is, da distinctions is da sam, bit da local pronunciation micht be different. Da onnly exception I can tink on is da saft pronunciation o AE, in wirds laek haed, daed, baen, etc, whaar hit's sed da sam as E in maest Mainland dialects (so dae'r nae differ atween 'hael' (whole') an 'hell') an da sam as EE in Nort Isles dialects (so dae'r nae differ atween 'hael' an 'heel').

 

Da AA phoneme is da maest obvious example. Hit's sed 'ah' in some plaeces an 'aw' in idders. Bit in aa dis plaeces, hit's sindered fae da short A, laek 'back' fae 'baak', 'clag' fae 'claag', an sae trowe.

 

So you git tree levels o pronunciation - at laest. Da baesic vowel (laek A, AE, AA, AI in 'bat', 'baet', 'faat' an 'bait'); variations on dat vowel (laek da 'saft' pronunciation o A in a wird laek 'bad') an mair local variations on dat pronunciation (laek da fact at da 'hard' version o AI is pronounced somethin laek 'ayi' in maist plaeces - laek bait is 'bayit' in my spaek - bit 'eh' in some idder plaeces laek Yell - 'beht'.

 

Very aften da local variations affects edder da 'hard' or 'saft' versions o a vowel, bit no baith. For example, da 'hard' version o AE - in a wird laek paet - is pronounced muckle da sam in maest pairts o Shaetlan except Whaalsa an Fair Isle; bit da 'saft' version - in a wird laek 'haed' - is pronounced 'hade', 'heyd' an 'heed' in different districts. Even in Whaalsa an Fair Isle, altoh da AE vowel is pronounced different fae da rest o Shaetlan, hit's still sindered fae da I an AI vowels. So da baesic distinctions persists, even toh da local pronunciations is different.

 

Da thing is, tho, at dis pronunciations tends ta be regular in ony area. 'Bait' an 'hate' is baith, as far as I'm awaar, pronunced 'eh' in Yell (or pairts o Yell) for example. Similarly 'haed' an 'daed' is baith pronunced 'ee' an 'baak' an 'baarn' is baith pronunced 'aw'.

 

So if we wir writin Shaetlan as a language, we wid onnly need wan spellin for every ene o dis baesic vowels. Dis widna hinder fock fae writin dir ain dialect. For example, if aa da wirds wi da AA phoneme wis spelled 'aa' in a coamon Shaetlan spellin, dan aa at a Nort Isles body wid hae ta dui wid be alter dem aa ta 'au'. Bit he could still read a text written wi AAs an pronunce hit his ain wye. Dis faas doon whin da spellin is irregular, wi wirds laek 'haaf' an 'waater' bein spelled AA, even toh dey duina hae da AA phoneme.

 

Rhymin is a guid guide. 'laek' rhymes wi 'paek' an 'daek', no wi 'lick' an 'pick'. Generally, if wirds rhymes wi ene anidder hit maks sense ta spell dem wi da sam vowel letters, an if dey duina hit duisna. Apairt fae onything idder, dis lats you spell wirds bi analogy wi idder wirds at soonds similar.

 

As far as dictionaries is concerned, I duina see a edder-or atween a simple version an ene wi regional pronunciations. Da idee wid be ta hae a haedwird - at haes da baesic vowel - an dan da regional pronunciations. For example:

 

HAED (da baesic vowel) - head

 

Nort Isles ' heed'

Mainland 'heyd'

Burra 'hade'

etc, etc.

 

BAAK - beam

 

Mainland - 'bahk'

Nort Isles - 'bawk'

 

Hoosumever, dis wid depend on (a) recognisin whit da baesic vowels is an whit baesic vowels is representit wi different local pronunciations, an ( some kind o regular wye o representin pronunciations - caase idderwyes you wid laekly git 5 fock pittin in 'different' pronunciations whaar, in fact, dey wir juist spellin da sam pronunciation different!

 

Da existin Shetland Dictionary widna dui aatagidder for haedwirds, caase hit represents a Central Mainland dialect, an duisna necessarily git da richt baesic vowel. For example -as faar as I can mind - hit spells 'hael' (whole) an 'wael' (select) da sam (I tink). Bit, whaarby 'hael' haes da AE vowel richt aneoch, da wird meanin select haes da langer AI/A-E vowel, an wid be better spelled 'wale'. (Or at laest, dey duina rhyme in my spaek or ony idder at I'm heard, altoh laek I say dey ir some exceptions ta dis general unity o baesic vowels in Shaetlan, juist laek every idder thing.)

 

(Eftertocht: hit wid be in dis representation o regional pronunciations at diacritics an da laek micht be haandy. For example, if I wis wantin ta emphasise da quality o da vowel soond at ex-isle spells å, I wid oese a grave accent ower da o (again, dis is no available i da abuin character set, as far as I can see, altoh I duina kaen whit wye caase da grave accent ower idder vowels is.) Dis wid shaa da lent o da oppen vowel, ithoot obscurin da fact at hit's actually a O phoneme.)

[ex-isle]

@depooperit: Regærdin da 'å' graff, I didna inklood dat among da Skaandik vowils I hed as a bærn. If du looks bakk, aa'at I sed aboot dat wis'at it wisna a graff I hed ösed, bit dat it myght be med ös o, ta repriesent a partieklir soond'at we fin ati'Shætlin. I wid say dat's takkin a verie partiekliir look at Shætlin's soond sistem, an no bein diktatit tæ bie onie iddir sistem, wheddir Anglik-bæsd ir dan Skaandik. An yis, I im a Påst-Moadrinist, mær as a Moadrinist, fir dat's mie era. I wis boarn whan Frederic Jameson wis atill his prym.

 

An ifkoors I kood æsie a'gien a lokk mær wirds as iksampils as du poynts oot. I joost didna waant to owirlodd da messiechboard. Bit ja, loss/låss ir slokk/slåkk myght be spelt læk dat, I suppoas, if dat wis t'be da graff ösed. Du siems t'say dat wid misrepriesent da etymologie sumhoo, bit i'da kæs a'slokk, hit wid in fakk be trooir t'da Engliesh sib-wird, 'slake', wid'it no?

 

Aa jun iddir stuff fæ dy 'wub-stied' is kynda owirmukkil fir me dis tym a'day. A'll hæ a look lætir. Bit I tink da mæn diffir atwien'is is'at du hæs a fikst, wirkit-oot sistem, whaar A'm still kynda lookin an lærnin - an lækie ay will be. I joost fin'at langwiech is ay mær complex as onie writtin sistem. Hit's læk tryin t'kaatch waatir atill a net; næ mættir fu fyn da mesh, hit ay seems t'run awa fæ'is. Onie orthograffik sistem is joost an approximæsjin. Soond kan nevir be fullie enkoadit ati'lettirs, joost suggestit - and dat's whit A'm aboot.

 

Bit du nevir ansed me aboot da Skaandik vowils in ati'Jakobsen, wheddir du admits'at dey ir in dær, in Norn wirds, an no Skots? Dat wis da impårtint poynt a'mie last påst.

[ex-isle]

A wikopaedia style dictionary exercise whaar / whaur we could aa pit in wir ain regional version? Noo dat wid be linguistic latitude. Voe micht fecht wi Vidlin an Waas wi MidWaas far less Sannis!

Hit's edder dat or a braaly simple version (lik da current dictionary) whaar we aa read da wird, ken whit hit means, but pronounce hit slichtly differently. We are da lucky.

 

Dat's hit, ja. I tink onie diksjinarie a'Shætlin hæs t'takk nott a'aa da varyities, iddirwys hit hæs næ klem t'be aathoritiv. A 'wubsteid', læk da 'Concise Scots Dictionary' mebbie, wie aa da regional varyints wid be a varg, bit whan'it gjits a græn a'boadie, hit wid be graand.

[ex-isle]

instead o 'dog from hell i dy

signature, foo aboot 'hund fae hell'??

 

At da risk a'låssin (na, jun dösna look ryght ava) da alliterasjin, 'Luv is a Hund a'da Melliesjin'?

[Lola Boomboom]

or ower-look alliteration fur da rhymin potential.

(spellin bein determined by rhyme)

[DePooperit]

"Love is da bick at whalpit ould Nick"

 

I tink yun's terrible guid!

[DePooperit]

@ex-isle.

 

Agaen, I’ll write dis ootside da forum system - first caase I’ll maybe miss bein flagged as a automatic bot or haein ta log in agaen an lossin whit I’m written, an saecond, caase - paradoxically, in view o whit we’r spaekin aboot - dae’r no aneoch diacritics an Nordic letters i da buttons ta dui me!

 

"@depooperit: Regærdin da 'å' graff, I didna inklood dat among da Skaandik vowils I hed as a bærn. If du looks bakk, aa'at I sed aboot dat wis'at it wisna a graff I hed ösed, bit dat it myght be med ös o, ta repriesent a partieklir soond'at we fin ati'Shætlin. I wid say dat's takkin a verie partiekliir look at Shætlin's soond sistem, an no bein diktatit tæ bie onie iddir sistem, wheddir Anglik-bæsd ir dan Skaandik. An yis, I im a Påst-Moadrinist, mær as a Moadrinist, fir dat's mie era. I wis boarn whan Frederic Jameson wis atill his prym."

 

Weelheth, if dat wisna ene o dem, whit wis? Mair aboot a parteecular look at da soond system below.

 

"An ifkoors I kood æsie a'gien a lokk mær wirds as iksampils as du poynts oot. I joost didna waant to owirlodd da messiechboard. "

 

As du can see, I hae nae qualms aboot dat! Bit I dunna tink at twaartree examples wid rex da server ower muckle.

 

"Bit ja, loss/låss ir slokk/slåkk myght be spelt læk dat, I suppoas, if dat wis t'be da graff ösed. Du siems t'say dat wid misrepriesent da etymologie sumhoo, bit i'da kæs a'slokk, hit wid in fakk be trooir t'da Engliesh sib-wird, 'slake', wid'it no?"

 

I doot no. I doot ‘slock’ duisna come fae da Standard English slake, bit mair laekly fae da Nordic - Faroese ‘slokkna’, Swedish ‘slockna’, baith wi muckle da sam meanin as ‘slock’ in Shaetlan (altoh i da passive sense), an baith spelled wi O. (BTW - du’ll nottice at Swedish oeses CK redder as KK - an hit’s juist as muckle a Nordic language as Norskie - mair conservative, in some wyes, wi still haein tree plural endins an dat.) CSD gies ‘slocken’ wi da sam meanin, bit dey gie da Norse as da etymology tui (Dae’r a braa grain o Norse influence in Scots, as du kaens) as weel as nME (Nort Middle English) at micht be fae da Norse in its turn, or (less laekly, I doot) fae a different branch o Aald English as da ene at cam ta be standard English.

 

Ta me, da ‘å’ grapheme duisna suggest a parteecular soond sae muckle as a reference ta Nordic wirds - for example, da ruit slå-, meanin ‘strick’, at comes, I tink, fae da Aald Norse ruit slá-, wi da sam meanin. Dis is whit I mean whin I say at hit can misrepresent da etymology. Of coorse, dae’r nae raeson whit wye spellin sood represent etymology. Bit da å grapheme is gaein ta mean naethin ta onybody at duisna kaen somethin aboot Nordic tongues, an ta dem hit haes a phoneme reference as weel as a soond value.

 

Noo, in Shaetlan, da Aald Norse á did occasionally come ta be a oppen ‘o’ soond, accoardin ta Jakobsen (p XLV). Bit bi far da maest typical reflex o dis vowel in wirds at we’r wint wi is da OA phoneme - in wirds laek hoe (háfr), voe (vágr), scoarie (skári) an da laek.

 

"Aa jun iddir stuff fæ dy 'wub-stied' is kynda owirmukkil fir me dis tym a'day. A'll hæ a look lætir."

 

Da main thing wid be ta read da examples oot, an compare dir soonds. Dat micht shaa whit I’m drivin at.

 

"Bit I tink da mæn diffir atwien'is is'at du hæs a fikst, wirkit-oot sistem, whaar A'm still kynda lookin an lærnin - an lækie ay will be. I joost fin'at langwiech is ay mær complex as onie writtin sistem. Hit's læk tryin t'kaatch waatir atill a net; næ mættir fu fyn da mesh, hit ay seems t'run awa fæ'is. Onie orthograffik sistem is joost an approximæsjin. Soond kan nevir be fullie enkoadit ati'lettirs, joost suggestit - and dat's whit A'm aboot."

 

We-el, ye-a. I couldna agree mair at ony orthographic system is juist an approximation. Hit seems ta me at, dat bein da kaese, da maest sensible thing ta dui is ta represent da baesic strynds - da enes at can kerry meanin - caase you can never represent aa da nuances o spaek. Efter aa, a tongue, written or spocken is first for communication. If hit stops bein uise for dat, dan hit’s nae uise - ta maest fock, onywye.

 

Da trouble wi Shaetlan is at hit’s comin ta be less an less needit for communication - in fact, wi less an less bairns spaekin it, hit’s comin ta be a draaback. An dat can onnly laed ta hit deein oot, as far as I can see. Da onnly hop - and hit’s a smaa ene - is ta mak a written form at fock can understaand an identify wi. A written language at’s juist uise ta leeterary an academic fock is - juist uise ta leeterary an academic fock. Duis da fact at, o da fower o wis at’s traepin maest on dis treeds, we aa bide Sooth (tree in Edinburgh), an at laest tree o wis is writers ta wan extent or anidder, no spaek for itsel?

 

As for my spellin, hit’s a wirkit-oot system richt aneoch, bit hit’s no fixed. I tink da main differ wi my approtch is whaar I start fae. I start fae whit da Shaetlan tongue is, in hitsel, in hits ain richt, an dunna worry ower muckle aboot whaar hit comes fae or whit hit’s sib til (altoh of coorse I can if I want tae.) Dat’s aa very interestin, bit hit’s a side-issue ta me. I’m interestit in finnin oot whit da Shaetlan soond system is, an foo hit aa wirks tagidder.

 

So my ‘system’ is a system richt aneoch, bit hit’s no ‘systematic’ sae muckle as ‘systemic’ in at hit recognises an represents da intrinsic strynds o da language in hits ain richt. Dat intrinsic system could be representit in different wyes. I oese a English-laek spellin caase I tink dat’s da aesiest ta read. Bit I could nae doot invent ene baesed on Nordic-style spellins at wid still pit ower da sam baesic vowel structure.

 

"Bit du nevir ansed me aboot da Skaandik vowils in ati'Jakobsen, wheddir du admits'at dey ir in dær, in Norn wirds, an no Skots? Dat wis da impårtint poynt a'mie last påst."

 

Weel, ta begin wi, I’m hed ta hock da aald twa-volumed sausage oot o da boddom o a press, caase I’m no buddered mi haed wi dis kind o things for a braa start. Bit mair fundamentally, I’m still no fairly shoer whit du means bi Scaandics. Du wid need ta gie me twaartree examples o parteecular wirds fae Jakobsen, an o da vowels in dem at du means, an dan I wid hae something ta spaek aboot. I canna spaek aboot somethin whin I dunna kaen whit it is!

 

For wan thing, I’m still no fairly shoer whit da wird ‘Skaandik’ refers tae. I’m wint wi da wird Nordic, as meanin (i da context o language) da tongues at cam doon fae Aald Norse. Foo duis da wird Scaandic differ fae dis? Da onnly possibeelity at occurs ta me is at hit micht refer tae da Continental Scandinavian languages - Danish, Norskie an Swedish - as fornent da Atlantic enes - Icelandic an Faroese. Bit dat’s juist my gaess.

 

Dan I’m sometimes no fairly shoer, whin du spaeks aboot Scaandic vowels, whidder du’s spaekin aboot soonds, or graphemes, or whidder du’s no makkin ony differ atween dem. Jakobsen’s wirdbeuk is a translation o a Danish beuk, written for Danish readers, an baith da haedwird spellins at he oeses an ta some extent even his phonetic transcriptions is angled tae a Danish readership. So he naiturally oeses Danish-laek spellin conventions an graphemes. For example, he writes ‘u’ for a soond at we wid maestly spell ‘oo’ (eg: ‘ful’ for ‘fool’, bird), an aften ‘o’ for a soond at we wid spell ‘u’ (eg: ‘bord’ for ‘burd’, a young bird). If he wid a written it for a English, or for dat maiter Icelandic, readership he micht a spelled dem different - maybe oesin diacritics laek ú ta shaa vowel differs. Dat raises da question o whit wye, if we dui want ta oese diacritics (sinderers? Dat’s mair or less whit da Greek ‘diacritic’ means) we duina oese da Aald Norse enes - laek á and ó - da wye at Icelandic an Faroese duis, redder as da Continental Scandinavian enes.

 

Ta win back tae da å spellin - since dat’s da onnly ene at we hae a example o yit - da problem at I hae wi oesin dis for da lang oppen ‘o’ soond is at dis misses oot twa thirds o whit’s actually gaein on.

 

In Shaetlan dae’r tree oppen vowels - A, E an O - at tends ta be lentened in dis wye, espeecially afore da laeks o F, TH an S (voiceless fricatives) bit sometimes afore idder letters. Examples fae my speak is: groff, mosst, oppen; heth, less, greff, gret (= Eng. great, no da past tense o 'greet'); staff, bath (bit no ‘lass’, funny aneoch). Juist ta oese da letter å ta emphasise dis wi da ‘o’ soond - hit seems ta me, juist caase dat letter happens ta be available i da Scandinavian character set - is, ta me, comin at it fae da wrang end. Hit’s finnin a plaece in Shaetlan ta slot in a Scandinavian letter, an so recognisin wan oot o tree vowels at tends ta hae lang oppen pronunciations, an ignorin da idder twa.

 

Bit dis strynd o Shaetlan pronunciation is no relatit tae da strynds at gied rise tae da å soond in Norskie an da laek. Hit comes fae various things. Ene is da followin voiceless fricatives. Anidder ene is da tendency in Shaetlan ta turn closs inta oppen ‘o’ - laek ‘rod’ an ‘cot’ for ‘road’ an ‘coat’ - ene o da things at maks Shaetlan distinctive fae Mainland Scots dialects at tends ta dui da opposite (‘stoap’, ‘shoap’, etc.) Sometimes, laek in ‘oppen’, hit seems at da quality o da vowel is changed fae da English/Scots, bit da lent is bidden lang. Dis is nae doot whit gies rise tae da contrast in my spaek atween ‘sock’ (Eng: sock) wi a short oppen ‘o’, an ‘sock’ (English ‘soak’, fooever you wid spell it in Shaetlan) wi a lang oppen ‘o’. Dis micht be whit wye, in a lock o pairts o Shaetland, 'gret' (great) haes a lentened 'e', bit 'gret' (past tense o 'greet') duisna.

 

In ony kaese, hit’s a native Shaetlan - no a Norskie - strynd, at effects tree vowels, no juist wan. Hit seems ta me ta mak mair sense ta come at it fae da idder ert - leuk at da strynd first, and dan come up wi a wye ta shaa him in writin if you want tae. If we wir gaein ta represent him oesin sinderin marks, hit wid mak mair sense ta oese da grave accent, at in a lock o languages shaas a lang oppen soond, an can be oesed on aa da vowels at haes dis strynd - so: pòst, grèt, hàff (no haaf, laek hit’s maestly spelled, caase dis wird duisna hae da AA phoneme at becomes ‘au’ i da Nort Isles) sòck, etc. As weel, dey wid hae da advantage at you could miss dem oot an still hae da sam baesic spellin.

 

Personally, I dunna tink at dis strynd is impòrtant aneòch ta shaa in dis wye, an if du wis ta spaek ta maest Shaetlan writers du wid fin at dey wir even lèss imprèssed wi da idee. (Bit dan, dey widna be impressed wi my idee o spellin ‘haff’ insted o ‘haaf’ edder! Hit’s ironic at even a dialect ithoot ony standard spellin can hae hidebound tradeetions.) Bit if you wir gaein ta represent it, I wid gaeng da hael hug an no stop wi da O soond juist caase dae happen ta be a Norskie vowel spellin ta slot in.

 

Heth. Some roed juist ta say at you widna budder. I húpp dæ’r næ wïdden spønn für da längest ïvver pòst on dis fórum!

[ex-isle]

"Love is da bick at whalpit ould Nick"

 

I tink yun's terrible guid!

 

Prent du da Teeshirts, boy

[ex-isle]

I húpp dæ’r næ wïdden spønn für da längest ïvver pòst on dis fórum!

 

Wiel noo du's kynda kummin aboot! Jun looks boannie!

 

Bit du's gjaain t'hæ t'mestir dis quhoats, fir hit's no joost dy pòst (ja, jun is boannie) hit affekks, bit ònieboadie tryin ta quhót de eftïr dat.

 

Hït's aafil æsie, as æsie as wirkin wie dan Skaandïks (I im gien de mie æïn defïniesjin a'mie æin partieklir öse a'dat term afoar, an as du wid expekk, hit riefers - in diffrint contexts - ta bæth soond an graff. As du sæs afoar, context'll makk meanin plen mæst a'da tym).

 

Sies du, du joost pits in a square brakkit, da wird 'quote', dan a equals, dan doobil quhoats, dan nem da boadie du's quhoatin, kloas dy quhoats an brakkits, dan pit in whitevir hit is du waants ta hy-lyt. Eftir du's don dat, du joost pits in aniddir square brakkit, an oblique, da wird 'quote', and close dy brakkit.

 

Næ buddir ava. An if du previews dy messiech afoar du posts, du winna gjit flaggit as a bot.

 

Re Jakobsen, I doot du'll hæ t'hokk oot da aald buggir fæ dy press, fir A'm no gjaain t'sit here aa day, bit here's twartrie tæn at randim, t'set de gjaain, t'see if du kan fin dy Skots ui atill'it: snød, snødi, snøggi, snøggjet, snøl, snølk, snølket, snør, snøs, snøsk, snøsket, snøss, snøtl. D'ir plentie mær apo iddir pæchiss.

 

Húp'it dösna pit owirmukkil o'a snøtl atwien dy broos.

[skyumpie]

I fairly likkit dy peerie rhyme, LolaB...if a coarn cynical! (Du shurley dusna mean hit?)

 

An Depooperit, yon wis a burn in spate but a fine een tö. I tocht da sinderins suggestit wis interestin an simple (v necessary criterion) an aesthetically less cluttered. But whit aboot da local pronunciation thing lik 'haand' and 'haund'? Da first een wid be 'hànd', da tidder een 'hònd'?

 

I dö (still need dat een - dui disna quite dö hit for me altho I could gyet ösed tae hit!) agree wi dee dat we run da risk o pitten non-writers affa readin. I tink dey fin hit herd enyoch / enyóch wi dis simpler form. Dat's my main concern. Especially bairns & young eens.

I write maist o mi emails hame i dialect an affen gyet replies in dialect. I believe a lok o textin is dön in dialect an dat micht be wan wye o encouragin da young eens. Mind you, hit micht mak a buckle o der spellin.

 

But hit's braa göd crack. Most horrid fine raelly.