Shetlan wirds in Scots Dictionary

[skyumpie]

I winder if I'm bein a coarn neurotic aboot da issue o da inclusion o Shetlan dialect itae da new version o da Concise Scots Dictionary. A'm jöst come fae haein a cup o coffee wi een o da staff at wirks on hit an shö is aye sendin me queries aboot wirds. (I gyet twartree fae da Oxford dictionary fokk an aa: onyboady else gyets queries lik dat?) I tend ta tink whit'll happen is dat we'll be smored in stories an poems wi a coarn o Shetlan wirds balled in for effect; da sam wye as you fin happenin wi Scots writin noo. Yet whan you hear dem read hit oot der nae authenticity in whit der written - hit's jöst da ootwaelins o a dictionary.

Or on da tidder haand, sud we be blyde at fokk wants ta öse wir wirds

[DePooperit]

I canna tink whit ta say aboot dis. Is dis a new edeetion o da Concise Scots Dictionary - da kinda big an scholarly ene, for aa at hit's caad 'concise' - or anidder ene o dis smaaer enes at da dictionary association (or whitever dey caa demsels nooadays) keeps pittin oot, laek da Schools dictionary an dat?

 

Hit seems ta me ta depend on da relative status o Scots an Shaetlan. If Shaetlan is defined as a dialect o Scots dan you laekly canna complen aboot Shaetlan wirds bein pitten ithin Scots dictionaries. I'm weel awaar o dis artifeeciality problem - an o da fact at few if ony o dem at maks up dis dictionaries seems ta be native spaekers o ony kind o Scots, aless things is changed. Bit I canna tink whit could be duin aboot it.

 

Da aald CSD I tink med a useful sinderin atween Scots wirds at micht be confined ta Shaetland nooadays, an enes o Norn origin at wis never been Scots, an left oot da Norn enes. Obviously dae wir nae wye at dey could pit in da hael inhad o Jakobsen. I winder if da new ene - if I'm pickit dis up richt - is makkin da sam distinction, or if dey'r includin a token number o Norn wirds tui, ta ward aff da idee at Shaetlan micht no be regairded as a Scots dialect? An if dey ir pittin in Norn enes, dan whaar ir dey gaein ta draa da line?

 

Naen o dis fock will be aksin me for ony wirds, obviously. Bit if dey did, yun's da kind o questions I wid be aksin.

[skyumpie]

Dat's helpful. Tae be honest, I kinda assumed hit wis een o da shorter versions, but noo at du mentions da bigger een, hit could very weel be dat. Hit's da 'Scots Language Dictionary' pairt o da School o Scottish Studies I tink at Edinburgh University (George Square).

Da form I hed ta fill in wis devoted ta wirds stertin wi da letter 'V' an maist o dem I wis nivver ivver heard o. I don't tink mony Scots fokk wid a kent o dem edder! But I micht be wrang. But aside some o dem I jöst wrat dat I didna tink hit wis wirt distinguishin 'vainish' for 'vanish'; 'vainity' for 'vanity' an sae on, so dey'll maybe no want me ta dö ony mair!

As tae da distiction o waelin oot Shaetlan wirds wi a Scots origin fae dem wi a Norn pedigree (as da distinguishin criterion for inclusion)...dat wid seem wan sensible wye o approachin da issue.

[DePooperit]

Hmm - I dunna kaen. Dey'r changed da naems o some o yun dictionaries, I tink. Whit wis wint ta be da Scottish Schools Dictionary (or somethin laek dat) haes anidder naem noo, I tink. I wid tink it mair laekly ta be ene o da shorter enes.

 

Da 'vanish/vainish' issue is interestin. In Shaetlan dae wid be nae point in spellin 'vanish' ony different fae da English, caase in Shaetlan, A regularly becomes a kind o a 'e' soond afore 'n' - in some districts onywye - so ta dee an me hit micht seem naitural ta pronounce 'vanish' as somethin laek 'venish' whin we're spaekin Shaetlan ithoot needin it spelled different. Hit wid juist be laek da wye at we (or maest o Shaetland, onywye) pronounce 'man', 'dan', 'can', 'van', etc. Bit in Scots, 'A' duisna dui dis regularly, so in Scots dae maybe ir a point in spellin hit different if hit's pronunced different - da sam wye at we feel a need ta write 'pairt' redder as 'part', for example.

 

Curiously, hit's on da Wast side at dis pronunciation o A as 'e' (for da want o a better wye o spellin it) afore voiced consonants is maest noticeably different fae maest o da rest o Shaetland. So you, I tink, say (again for want o a better wye o spellin) da wirds Bal an Wal as 'baal' an 'waal' whaar I wid say 'bel' an 'wel'. Bit maybe dis difference is onnly afore L?

[skyumpie]

Du's richt aboot dat spellin. I suppose I widna lippen ta see da wird 'pairt' (or indeed da wird 'wird') i wir Shaetlan dictionary!

Noo A'm kinda back tae da iddder straand: hit's a queer business dis wye we spaek! Hit does seem ta be a wast side thing dis broad 'aa' soond. Ya, we dö say in for waal an baal an twaal an sae on but also haand an baand an waand an da lik. waander......swaander....swaap, sqaad...da oppen soond seems ta be braaly ubiqitous. I associate da tichter 'wel', 'metch' an da lik wi Burra especially but laekly der a lok o idder places an aa. A phonetic map wi be fun! Hit's a sign o graet livliness dat der sae muckle differ. My faider cam fae nort trowe an mi midder fae soothbye an I wis brocht up on da wast side an dan bade i da scöl hostel wi isles' lasses for 6 year an sae I gyet braaly confused at times.

Onywye A'm awa ta pit me feet up! Fine ta hae a sheeks!

[Njugle]

Joost a peerie interlude fae an interested observer. Da idea o a phonetic map wid be fascinating, could be a MA or siklik in daer somewye fir someen. Onywye, da point i really kem athin here tae say wis; whaur does da wird 'klapp' stand we ony o you. I wis maust delighted tae fin it athin a Norsky Dictionary when i wis ower daer, and hiv since windered hoo far sooth it gængs oot o Shaetlan. Onybody ken?

 

Oh, of coorse i shud say: Klapp,(v) as in "I klapp da dug" or "Jey klapp dem hund", (if i recall correctly!).

 

(ps will try tae git used tae usin wir splendeed buttons fir phonetics lætter on )

[DePooperit]

As far as phonetic maps is concerned, dae'r alreddy da Linguistic Atlas of Scotland. He misses oot gret swatches o Shaetland, toh - da hael Nort Aest Mainland, for example - so he could be biggit apon, if onybody hed da trowepit an bebudderation (did I mak yun wird up?) ta dui it.

 

Anidder quot fae my website (ta save me repeatin mesel)

 

"...the regions of Shetland represented in the LAS are strikingly peripheral. There are two from the North Isles (North Yell and Fetlar); three from the far West (Papa Stour, Walls and Foula); three from the South (Dunrossness, Scousburgh and Fair Isle) and two (Hamnavoe and Oxna - now uninhabited) from the small group of islands to the South and West of Scalloway. The entire North, East and Central Mainland is completely unrepresented, as are some of the more distinctive dialects such as that of Whalsay. "

 

I duina hae da beuks at haand ta leuk up 'clap' eenoo, bit dey certainly oese it i da Nort Aest o Scotland, wi da 'clap a dug' meanin. Da OED an Concise Scots Dictionary micht come up wi mair wittins.

 

Eftertocht: I duina kaen whit determines foo muckle dialect variation dae ir in a plaece. Faroese haes a lock - as muckle as Shaetlan, altoh dat's no hindered dem ta come up wi a common spellin - bit Iceland, I'm heard, haes very little. America haes a braa lock, bit Australia haes hardly ony. Seems ta hae little ta dui wi size or population, or foo lang da tongue is been spocken in a certain plaece, edder.

[ex-isle]

Dat's helpful. Hit's da 'Scots Language Dictionary' pairt o da School o Scottish Studies I tink at Edinburgh University (George Square). ... da distiction o waelin oot Shaetlan wirds wi a Scots origin fae dem wi a Norn pedigree (as da distinguishin criterion for inclusion)...dat wid seem wan sensible wye o approachin da issue.

 

Da Scots Language Dictionary projekk is da mukkil æn, da ongjaain æn, dat spaand da CSD. I kynda læk da CSD, fir da fakk'it took hied a'varieæsjin - bit dey wir an aafil lokk a'Shætlin wirds no dær, obvieslie.

 

Da SLD widna hæ da sam fikst liemits, so'at hit kood hadd aathin - an dat's whit I wid læk ta see. Da Norn inpit in ati'Skots in Shætlin is shörlie a pært a'dis historie a'Skots aswiel.

[DePooperit]

 

(ps will try tae git used tae usin wir splendeed buttons fir phonetics lætter on )

 

Anidder eftertocht. I dunna kaen whaar da idee comes fae at oesin diacritics is phonetic. (Aaricht, I notticed dy tui, bit ony excuse ta roed, an I im wirkin up tae a point!) Dey'r juist anidder wye o spellin fae letter combinations (digraphs) laek 'oo' an 'au' - anidder spellin system, oesed in some idder languages. Dae'r a lang roed on my website aboot foo different spellin systems - Continental Scandinavian, Atlantic Nordic, Finnish - couldbe oesed ta represent da Shaetlan soond system. Bit naen o dem is ony mair phonetic - for vowels, onywye - as da wye at I'm writin eenoo.

 

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/wirhoose/but/zet/orth.htm

 

(Table aboot half wye doon, an antrin examples at da end).

 

If you're gaein ta be phonetic you edder hae ta oese da India Pale Ale (IPA - International Phonetic Alphabet) or SAMPA, hit's ASCII equeevalent. I'm alreddy adaptit dis tae da Shaetlan soond system here:

 

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/wirhoose/but/zet/sampa.htm

 

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/wirhoose/but/zet/pronunce.htm#A

 

 

Or you could juist drink da beer an no budder wi da alphabet ....

 

In ony kaese, real phonetic recordin o regional pronunciations is a job for a trained phonetician. I kaen a grain aboot linguistics - aneoch ta kaen foo muckle I dunna kaen - an I widna even attempt it.

 

If onybody wantit ta dui dis, da best idee wid be ta mak a representative list o Shaetlan wirds at haes da baesic vowel phonemes in different phonetic environments - muckle laek da Linguistic Atlas duis, bit a grain better suitit tae da Shaetlan soond system - bit recoard dem redder as write dem doon. Dan onybody could dui da recoardin. Da trick wid be ta come up wi da richt selection o wirds in da first plaece.

 

I winna gaeng on aboot dis here, since I'm roedin end-on in anidder treed aboot it alreddy.

[ex-isle]

I dunna kaen whaar da idee comes fae at oesin diacritics is phonetic.

 

Weel ifkoors, if du's gjaain ta be iksakt, we aa ken'at da term 'fonetik', propirlie ösed, riefers t'da IPA. Dat's fyn. Bit du mann admit, shörlie, dat da wird is ösed in kommon spæk t'riefer ta a kynd a'skrievin dat takks partieklir hied a'da soonds a'wirds, mær as da wy'at d'ir normallie spellt? Læks a'Tom Leonard ir dat.

 

In dat sens, if da modiefiekæsjins med ta da Engliesh alfabet bie da addiesjin a'diakritikal marks alloos da soonds a'Shætlin ta be rendirt mær effektivlie, dan dey dø indied makk a 'fonetik' differins t'da written wird.

[skyumpie]

Nyugle aksed aboot 'klapp' as in klappin da hund: hit's in Chambers dictionary as a Scots wird for 'pat', but I dunna hear hit muckle idder as in Shetland.

[ex-isle]

Nyugle aksed aboot 'klapp' as in klappin da hund: hit's in Chambers dictionary as a Scots wird for 'pat', but I dunna hear hit muckle idder as in Shetland.

 

Hit's 'Aald Norss' - da nown 'klapp' - 'a tap, a gentle blow', an da verb 'klappa' - 'to tap, or strike gently'. Jakobsen notts hit bein ösed ati'twartree sayins - 'He klappit him doon a'da mukkil shair', an 'I never klappit een apo it'.

 

An da SOED gies da røt as Middil Engliesh, 'clappe', wie da sam connotations as we hæ da day. Funnie'at hit dösna hæ da definiesjin relæmoomin ta 'klappin een apo,' 'at I kan see.

 

I æ toght dat an Engliesh expression - 'I hadn't clapped eyes on him in years'. Ir im I doitin?

[Lola Boomboom]

Na, du's no doitin yit. My Concise Oxford version haes... clap eyes on, colloq.

[DePooperit]

I dunna kaen whaar da idee comes fae at oesin diacritics is phonetic.

 

Weel ifkoors, if du's gjaain ta be iksakt, we aa ken'at da term 'fonetik', propirlie ösed, riefers t'da IPA. Dat's fyn. Bit du mann admit, shörlie, dat da wird is ösed in kommon spæk t'riefer ta a kynd a'skrievin dat takks partieklir hied a'da soonds a'wirds, mær as da wy'at d'ir normallie spellt? Læks a'Tom Leonard ir dat.

 

In dat sens, if da modiefiekæsjins med ta da Engliesh alfabet bie da addiesjin a'diakritikal marks alloos da soonds a'Shætlin ta be rendirt mær effektivlie, dan dey dø indied makk a 'fonetik' differins t'da written wird.

 

Yea - you can dui a kind o a 'popular' phonetic spellin at duisna oese da India Pale Ale. Even aalder dictionaries oesed a kind o a re-spellin system somethin laek dis, toh I tink maest o dem is tuin on da IPA noo.

 

Bit I wis traepin fornenst da idee at oesin diacritics is phonetic per se. You can mak a popular phonetic spellin juist as aesy ithoot oesin diacritics - juist laek Tom Leonard duis. For example, insted o writin Ã… for a lang oppen 'O' soond, du could write 'aw' - for example, 'pawst', 'grawff', etc. Dis seems ta me ta be juist as 'phonetic', i da popular sense, as oesin diacritics.

 

Certainly a system o oesin diacritics ta shaa soonds could be wrocht oot - laek grave accents for lang oppen vowels, or acute enes for lang close vowels, or whitever, bit - oonlaek da Tom Leonard wye, at relies on a popular perception o da soonds o da English/Latin alphabet - dis wid onnly wirk if baith reader an writer understuid da system an kent whit da diacritics stuid for.

[ex-isle]

Na, du's no doitin yit. My Concise Oxford version haes... clap eyes on, colloq.

 

Mósta misst'it. Or mebbie da SOED ediesjin I hæ did?