2008 - Shetland Fitba

[EISTnWAST]

I think I can see where your idea is coming from Stoichkov. You are basically talking about increasing participation. With that set up i can't see how there could be promotion and relegation. So how about this idea to increase participation......

 

Start up the Southern League again, and have a Northern League as well as the Works League (Central League).

 

 

I do think the biggest problem with Shetland football, is the lack of promotion and relegation. It works in set-ups with a similar standard of teams on the mainland, but they don't have the problem of reserve teams to hinder them. To get round this , scrap the reserve league, and have teams loan their players out to Stoichkov's proposed Town & Country Leagues. 3 (or 4 with North, South, Central) way play-off for promotion and relegation, including bottom team in Premier League. If teams don't want to be promoted, the chance to play in the play-off goes to 2nd, 3rd or 4th place team.

 

I know people will start stating the virtues of reserve teams now, but let me state the facts. There is an obvious gap between a good B team and the works league. There is (as proved this season in the County Shield) a big gap between Premier League and Works League. There is no way to alter the current set-up without bridging this gap.

 

If there are hundreds of people in Shetland who want to play football, then why is it necessary to have a B team to be able to field a first team?

Answer - it's not. It's only necessary to ensure the strong teams stay strong, and the weaker ones no chance to get stronger - through player recruitment. I would be interested to know, what is the lowest level of football in Britain - other than Shetland - which has a dedicated reserve league? I think it will be a professional one.

Furthermore, if a player doesn't want to return to his Premier League side after spending some time on loan, I think you'll find that that player has found a level of football suitable for him.

 

 

Just realised, I'm about to get complaints that teams couldn't always field a team without the reserve side due to work commitments. Remember - your players are on loan. They can be recalled at anytime, and loaned out again. This would be a relaxed system, with the only consideration being having players cup-tied for County Shield.

[penfold]

Where do you find the players from for the teams in the Southern section of your idea EistnWast?, which teams do you envisage playing in it? Southend Utd, Cunningsburgh, Sandwick, Burra, Scalloway, Ness United?, not trying to shoot your idea down just interested in the finer detail.

[EISTnWAST]

Maybe, Country and Town leagues below Premier to begin with. The biggest problem with my idea is that it would require new teams being formed to be successful. Maybe, only one lower league to begin with. Maybe, Delting could run their reserve team as Brae. Alot of maybe's, but i'm sure participation would eventually increase overall, as well as competition.

If you look at the last 10 years, Whalsay and Delting have done consistently well in the B league. Better to have Brae or Symbister in the Premier League than a team that can't field 11 players.

There would still be a gulf between top and bottom of each league, but the gap between the Premier League and the rest would be reduced significantly.

To be honest I can't see it working either. Because the 'big clubs' aren't big enough to give up their reserve sides. It's a bit like asking Celtic or Rangers to do something to help the whole of Scottish football - never gonna happen.

 

Don't know if i've really answered you question there penfold

[penfold]

nope , I just wondered where you had found the players for a Southend United team, Cunningsburgh, Sandwick and A Ness United team from, for the Southern League division was all, it might be a goal to aim towards but doubt you would find the numbers to start with.

[EISTnWAST]

I'm getting stuck intae dis reserve team thing noo.

 

Take Ness for example. They've had two brothers (from a very famous footballing family) loaned out. One in 2006, one in 2007. The 2006 instance was moving up a division, to maintain that players ability at a higher level. The 2007 instance was to another Premier League team, who were clearly struggling for players. I think it has only benefited Ness to do this. In the 2007 example, I don't think he would have got much playing time for Ness anyway. (?) (Also, please take note Delting).

 

These weren't strictly speaking loans, but Ness shouldn't have any problem retaining these players in the future. It shows how a team can operate successfully, without having the need for a B team. And perhaps also shows, that by loaning a player, you can give that person the oppurtunity to play at a better standard than your reserves would offer.

 

 

NB - Under my idea for loans, if a team recalled a player from a team in the same division, that player could only be loaned out again to a team in a different division.

[penfold]

The case of the 2006 player, was definately not a loan, the individual stated he would not play for Ness if the club stayed in the B league, though he did state he would return to the Club if it went up to the A league in the future, which true to his word he did this year, though he has not featured in the team because of a long term knee injury.

[EISTnWAST]

I'm well aware of the facts surrounding that particular instance. But the club should think about what's good for the player, especially if he has any aspirations to play for Shetland. It isn't professional football. The way for a club in Shetland to keep a big squad is to keep players happy. If he wasn't so dedicated to Ness, he could easily have told them where to go, after some of the remarks made to him. In my opinion he would walk into any teams midfield in Shetland.

 

But that didn't happen, because of the agreement for him to play elsewhere for a season. Hey, that sounds just like a loan, and everybody's happy. Funny old game.

[penfold]

There was no agreement to "allow" him to leave the club for a year to return when we stepped up, he was asked to stay and help at a meeting deciding the future of the club and he put his own case for wanting to play "A" football and also stated then the club which he was going to join, he was at the end of the 2005 season a free agent as is every player in shetland, and had the right to choose who he played for in 2006, Ness United did not enter in to a loan agreement with his new club, and had he wished to play for them in the 2007 season he could have done so, the undertaking to return to Ness United in the 2007 season was one that he gave of his own free will, and should be applauded for, for sticking too.

[EISTnWAST]

I know it wasn't a loan. Just the way it turned out was similar. And it proves that loans can work.

[penfold]

I dont think a loan system like that could work though as you could end up with players flitting back and forth willy-nilly, it would need to be for a defined length of time and say once the player had been loaned once he could not be loaned again, either return to the parent club or stay at the loan club until the loan period lapse's.

[EISTnWAST]

Well the player would have to sign for the club at the start of the season. So the player is no longer a free agent. It's up to the manager to decide if he can play for a lower league club. Your idea would also work penfold, but what i'm really suggesting is a move back to when the Viking League existed. I may be wrong (as i was quite young at the time), but players could play in both leagues then. The only difference is that manager's would have the power to stop their players playing for another team, after they had signed for the club. I am also seem to remember, that the problem before was that manager's had no power to stop their players playing for different teams.

 

 

TVR till I die!!!!!!

[EISTnWAST]

I'd like to point out that the loan system i'm proposing already exists in Shetland football. If a team is willing to give up the registration of a player, he can move clubs. It's happened this season with a new Whalsay signing.

 

I don't know if he intends to move back to Burra next season. Or can someone tell me if he would have been allowed to change clubs again if the season wasn't over?

 

The way it would work is to keep the movement of players decided by the teams, and not the players. The players have one chance at the start of the season to decide who holds their registration.

[penfold]

If you have a system where you can play in both leagues it only serves to keep somebody out of a team if you have a guy playing for two teams in separate leagues then somebody that wants to play is missing out, I spoke to a ex burra player once who stated that when he was at the height of his game he played for three senior clubs in different leagues, and stated looking back on it was wrong because he kept two other players out of a team, it doesnt help with participation.

 

the big teams could manage without reserve squads but their single squad would need to be bigger, that leads to problems with players dorting cos they dont get games when they think they should, loaning them out might help that but there will always be strain with "we need him tomorrow, well so do we arguements" it is not unfeasable for a player to go back for two games and find he is back to square one and the club he was loaned to not wanting him back cos they got someone else to replace him.

[EISTnWAST]

I think it is feasible. It's up to the player which team he signs for at the start of the season. If he doesn't think he has much chance of playing, why sign for a team in the first place? Premier League teams could loan a player from a lower division if they wanted. Also he could play for more than one team on loan in a season. It needs a bit of common sense from everybody to be run smoothly. But sadly, that's what's lacking, and there will be no changes made to improve the set-up.

 

Tackling your point about keeping someone out of the team. I played A's, B's, and Southern League at the same time, as well as U18's. Should i feel bad about keeping someone out of a team? Those guys can go and find another team to play for, at a level appropriate to them. There's a fine line between encouraging participation, and giving someone a game just because it's convienient for him to walk 5 minutes doon da rod fur a keek aboot.

[Stoichkov]

We have to remember that u can only have 11 players on the park at one time! If sides didn't have reserve teams or feeder teams they would have either large squads where 12-15 players wouldn't be getting a regular game or small squads of only 12-15 players, as those not getting a game will have gone somewhere else.

If the A league has 10 or 11 teams, plus cups then there should be plenty o fitba for those playing A's and so they shouldn't feel the need to play for 3 or 4 teams!