Peak Oil Production & the journey down to empty?

[Guest Anonymous]

AN Interesting article indeed damascus , and again what stands out in the comments posted is that most ignore the energy link altogether as if they have just blanked out wanting to conntemplate it . Apart from the last post who pointed out the in order for there to be winners in a post peak oil world then losers must be created in order to maintain your energy supply. And I guess that could also be described as a war for resources ?

And not long ago the yanks were anouncing multi billion dollar arms deals with who they regard as there closest allies in in the good old middle of east.

I dont know what the answers are , but i would be happy to see oil double or treble in price now. As this problem could be delayed if we realize that even here in the uk (america's level of use is insane) our rate of consumption is more like extravigant waste than rational use , no in fact its not far from insane either when you think of the plastic shrink wrapped neaps in the supermarket and the drawers full of used plastic supermarket bags that i give various family members grief about using again and they just look upon me as some kind of mad eccentric (so days i do feel like a nut) to the vast number of people who drive around in 4 x 4 's and GTI'S . And then you can go up a level to the amount of food for sale in our shops that travelled from thousands of miles away to get here , particularily air frieght foods and even worse foodstuffs that can be grown or reared right here.

Another thing I heard on the radio that struck me as a wast os energy was in glasgow where the recently shipped back an old 180 tonne steam train engine from south africa and put it on display in george square , that had to involve a substantial burning of fossil fuels for absolutly no benifit

I am of the opinion that you cant really blame any particular person or establishment for bringing us to this point, i mean the burning of fossil fuels was a great thing for progress until it was realised it was destroying the delicate balances on this planet .

But It is astonishing that the government really does notthing to wake everybody up to the problems post production peak and decline very likely will bring .

I mind hearing that in the whole f**ked up intertwinning of national government with the buearacratic jungle of the E.U , our own leaders cant even legislate the decommisioning of the old style wasteful light bulb and making the new energy efficient type the standard across the country ( australia has done this apparently)

If they cana handle somthin lik a light bulb, that if every light socket in da country had then they could shut doon twartree power stations, then how can they ever hope to get to grips we car manufacturers and oil companies etc , etc ?

[DamnSaxon]

And a thoughtful post from you too, droilker. Part of this problem is that although some of us as individuals are aware of the problems, we've not (yet?) got the "critical mass" needed to get something actually done about it on the big scale.

 

We in this "golden age" must be one of the most profligate generations in human history, if not the most profligate. Not only are there more of us than ever before, but when you pause and think that China and India are currently industrialising, and aiming to "raise" the standards in their countries to those the West have enjoyed for almost a century, you realise what a desperate situation this poor old planet is in.

 

In the West, profligacy is just a way of life now. It's not only the selfish people driving their children into school in their 4x4's "because it makes them feel safe". A pal of mine often comments on how, when people are brushing their teeth, they leave the tap running all through - using gallons of water for a job that needs about a glassful. People rip out perfectly good kitchens after a few years because the new one is more "up-to-date". In fact, a lot of people replace an awful lot of things when they're only a few years old, either for "style" reasons or just because the damn thing was so shoddily made in the first place that it won't last much longer. To me, a thing is well made if it'll last me a lifetime. To the money men who run the show, it's well made if it lasts two or three years so they can sell you another one at regular intervals. It's insane.

 

Don't think I'm being entirely facetious by introducing lightbulb jokes into this thread (sorry, Malcolm, you're not the only joker round here!):

 

Q: How many MP's does it take to change a lightbulb ?

 

A (1): Twenty-one. One to change it and twenty to form a fact-finding committee to learn more about how it's done.

 

A (2): I'm sorry I can't tell you that, the light bulb changing service has been privatised and the information you require is commercially sensitive.

 

Okay, when you've had a chuckle, stop and think. Since Thatcher started "deregulating" everything in sight, successive governments have seen regulation as some kind of evil which must be eliminated. I always thought that regulating things for the good of us all was the very point of gevernment, but apparently, like that kitchen, I'm just "out of date". They're all (with the possible exception of the LibDems) so ideologically committed to "freedom" for businesses (rather than freedom for us, dammit) that they no longer seem actually to be running anything except giant databases. The private sector ain't going to change anything until enough of us start insisting they become a lot more responsible and actually refusing to do business with them until they do - back to the critical mass problem again.

 

I don't know what the hell we're going to do either. Our leaders don't want to know about controlling anything except us, they won't tell us what's going on anyhow because of "commercial sensitivity" (a carpet under which a lot of very smelly practices hide, I reckon), and none of them has the guts to be seen to be the first to take the problem seriously. You're right, it's no one individual to blame, but somehow I'm not terribly reassured to think that I'm "only" one sixty-millionth of the problem this country is, or 1/6,200,000,000 of the whole problem. I try. You try. But not until everybody tries a lot harder - and some politician dares re-introduce regulation where it's needed, i.e. of the greedy "free market" - will we start slowing the great ship of wastefulness and turning it round.

 

Funny how there's not a lot of comfort in the thought that, if we don't get our act together, the planet's ecosystem will do it for us. In fact, it looks as if it's already starting to do so, and it looks as if it isn't going to be much fun for the human race.

[Fjool]

Some very insightful and thought-provoking posts here.

 

DamnSaxon's point about our profligacy (had to look it up, I'm happy to admit) is spot on. I worry about the number of tyres, mobile phones, CDs, batteries and so on. We are a terrible bunch for squandering what we have. Nobody has ever had it so good as we, and yet we moan and bicker about having to tidy up after ourselves, or reduce the amount we waste. Irrational and selfish.

 

Shrink-wrapped neeps, droiker? I've tutted and fretted over that myself - not just neeps either but cucumbers and all manner of other things too. What can we do about this kind of thing? I've stopped buying them if so wrapped but, often, this means I have no cucumber, neeps, etc. I recently read about a campaign to start leaving excess wrapping at the supermarket; make it their responsibility - perhaps this would encourage them to reduce the packaging in the first place. Could this work? In fact it's probably best not to use supermarkets at all. (Guilty of doing so myself, however)

 

All in all nobody can deny that we will run out of resources eventually and that the crap we're stacking up all over the place is making a futzing mess. A culture of waste and excess which we should all be embarrassed about.

[DeMascus]

well we all seem do be in agreement that shrink wrapped neeps must be stopped, I have a tote bag that i got a few years ago that can fit in my pocket, it stops use of plastic bags. I agree with the idea of leaving plastic wrapping at the supermarket, haven't done it yet, but the more I think about it "every little helps" hehe.

 

But I do think this problem has a deeper cause, that may not be as easily identifiable as walking out of supermarkets with double plastic wrapped food. My own view is the effect that our current system of economics where every actor is designated as a wealth maximiser beyond all else, is one of the most divisive forces in the modern world, and the idea has no real social benefit but is not challenged my government or academia precisely because the people who fit into this category generally control the wealth of the world, surprise surprise!

 

I remember seeing a speech by chomsky where he was asked who was to blame by a group of academics and he preceeded to point around the room, you, you, you...

 

Look at everything that science and technology has done and it is quite amazing, which is generally the main retort i find, and it is true. There is a but though what we are doing is borrowing from the future, we have been using oil as fast and as loose as possible and it has become integral to every part of out lives, we are dependent on it, - we are the nation, Amy Winehouse, and we don't really have a problem - The catch is in essence oil is an asset, it doesn't grow, or if it does it isn't in large enough quantities to be viable, why isn't it viewed as an asset.

 

Argh, I can never seem to get any type of coherent explanation on this subject, I appoligise for any confusion caused, it is probably because there are so many things at work that are at odds. once you move one aspect the rest have to change to adept to a new model. but we are in sore need of a new model, remember inequality is on the rise in the world, that is note enough, we are doing something very wrong.

 

There was an interesting article in the FT:

The US government is on a ‘burning platform’ of unsustainable policies and practices with fiscal deficits, chronic healthcare underfunding, immigration and overseas military commitments threatening a crisis if action is not taken soon, the country’s top government inspector has warned.

Learn from the fall of Rome, US warned - FT

[sheepshagger]

I would like to mention that i am in fact a supporter of greenpiece and what it should stand for.

I stand in awe of the small band of there people who sailed into the nuclear testing sites in the far pacific during the 70's and helped put an end to the detonation of nuclear weapons for test purposes. In fact there has been over 2000 nuclear detonations on this planet since hiroshima and nearly all of them were significantly bigger!

At least greenpiece helped put an end to atmospheric detonations.

For the new genaration of them to burn hundreds of tonnes of fossil fuel chasing a few fishermen around the north sea is a disgrace to there organisation and a waste of there powers as regards who they should be holding to account for the massive crimes against nature that are being commited on this planet.

I am sure these twats who jumped in front of a few trawlers still switch on the lights in there house at night and buy there food from supermarkets.

I also am guilty as i sit at the computer with my energy efficient lightbulb burning ( am tryin ! )

But if Greenpiece want to win back there credibility the getting the govewrnment to face up to the coming crisis and also educacting the masses on how to live and burn less would be a good start.

 

I can't remember the guys name but the founder of greenpeace quit a few years back stating that it was now full of idiots that had lost all grasp of reality an those that are running it are basicaly a bunch of self serving morons.

EnviroMENTALism has become a multi billion pound industry, throw up a new scare story and watch the money pour in.

I very much doubt that carbon dioxide is having the effect that is claimed by the green lobby because the figures are there in black and white and when looked at from an objective view point the amount of co2 produced does not tally with the warming of the planet that we are now experiancing. but if you check the records of the suns activity the figures match pretty damn well with the current trend in global warming. when i use the word current the sun spot record is fairly precise for the last 150 years. although global warming has been going on since the last ice age 10,000 odd years.

And why dont you hear more scientitsts standing up and shouting this out, just look at what happens when they do a massive publicity campain rolls in to action to discredit and smear them with cry's of your in the pay of industry maybe but are not the scientists who are crying out disaster in the pay of the enviroMENTAL brigade.

I'm not sugesting that we follow the yanks example an run around in 6ltr pick ups thats just stupid oil is a finite resource and we have to make the best use of it we can But we are powerless to prevent global warming so instead of taxing the turd out of us like our glorious leader GB is, lets prepare for the inevitable stop building on low lying ground because no matter what all the blowers of hot air with their kyoto agreements say we are powerless to stop it yet no goverment is willing to admit this and start dealing with the reallity of the situation.

So now is ony body wanting to buy some land half wye up da staney hill potential for some beach front property at knock down prices.

(den again dinna want ta gee yun sausage ony mair money so forget that)

[ArabiaTerra]

I very much doubt that carbon dioxide is having the effect that is claimed by the green lobby because the figures are there in black and white and when looked at from an objective view point the amount of co2 produced does not tally with the warming of the planet that we are now experiancing.

 

Would you please post a link to this startling news which, apparently, every climate scientist on Earth has missed?

 

Or have you just bought into the misleading disinformation that is spouted by the current, fossil-fuel based power industry in a desperate attempt to protect their business and avoid responsibility for the disaster we are now facing.

 

There is only one conspiracy in climate research: The concentrated, multi-million pound efforts of the energy industry to rubbish the findings of all the independent climate research scientists who are trying to make us wake up to the coming catastrophe.

[ArabiaTerra]

Its not just the end of oil that is going to cause problems in the coming decades. There are several other factors which will combine to make the first half of this century crucial for the human race, or at least, human civilisation as we know it. Rising population is going to continue to squeeze our resources, global warming is changing the climate and a whole host of different minerals are becoming increasingly difficult to find/extract. To add to that, the continuing growth of the rich/poor divide and this religious "clash of civilisations" we seem to be embroiled in, things are starting to look increasingly bleak. The really scary thing is that, considering we have already consumed the easily accessible resources on the surface of the planet, if our mechanised society falls, humanity will probably not get another chance to build a sustainable, fair, civilised society for centuries. It took a thousand years to recover from the fall of the Roman empire.

 

Not that we have built a sustainable, fair, civilised society anyway, at least not for 3/4 of the population of this planet, but we do have the power (I believe) to achieve this. The problem seems to be one of organisation and distribution rather than technical impossibility. The means already exist to generate power in an environmentally sustainable way. There is also no need for us in the west to use as much power as we actually do. I bet the average European could halve their energy consumption without making a significant impact on their lifestyles, Americans could save even more. The amount that we waste is shameful. The problem is that we need to get off our fat lazy arses and make the necessary changes. No-one else is going to do it for us. Why should the Chinese and Indians take any notice of our bleating about "Climate Change" or "Peak oil" before we make a genuine effort to change our ways. The coming crises is our fault. Why should we expect anyone else to haul our arses out of the fire?

[Fjool]

Would you please post a link to this startling news which, apparently, every climate scientist on Earth has missed?

Good call.

 

I am also interested in a link which backs up: 'the records of the suns activity the figures match pretty damn well with the current trend in global warming'.

[sheepshagger]

I'm not much cop at posting links and I don't have the stuff to hand so you will have to wait till I am home again . or you could look it up on the internet. try looking for records of sun spot activity and tempreture graphs on a global scale.

it is no use saying the tempreture in london or la or tokyo etc has risen by x amount either as cities have expanded over the years and as any school kid taking geography will tell you that tarmac concrete etc acts to increase temprature. I have not looked at this one in particular but how much has shetlands temp increased since records began. but of course the enviroMENTALists will tell you that any figures that dont agree with their theory are an invention of the big bad industrialists

[sheepshagger]

 

There is only one conspiracy in climate research: The concentrated, multi-million pound efforts of the energy industry to rubbish the findings of all the independent climate research scientists who are trying to make us wake up to the coming catastrophe.

 

Independent means free from outside influence how can a scientist be independent if he is being funded by an enviromental group.

 

do industrialists not have children too and if they do are you claiming that they dont love them as much as any one else.

 

remember the enviromental lobby is worth billions of pounds dont they suffer the frailties of greed and averice than the rest of society

[Fjool]

Funny... first thing I found when I searched, as you suggested, is this: New Scientist - Climate myths: Global warming is down to the Sun, not humans.

 

Here's the full 'Climate change: A guide for the perplexed' article, which includes a round-up of the 26 most common global warming myths: http://environment.newscientist.com/channel/earth/dn11462

 

Anyway... this is all slightly off-topic since this thread is about Peak Oil, not global warming. We have a thread for environmentalism and global warming over here.... ---> http://www.shetlink.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1843

[DeMascus]

Independent means free from outside influence how can a scientist be independent if he is being funded by an enviromental group.

Being funded by an environmental groups who's aims are to study the effect our interaction has on the environment of the planet is quite different then being funded by a corporate group who's aims are to increase market share and acquire wealth for investors.

 

remember the enviromental lobby is worth billions of pounds dont they suffer the frailties of greed and averice than the rest of society

Charities are by their involvement in our current economic system forced to act in certain ways, but I would be dubious about the billions figure, if it is calculable at all, and the main purpose of the organisation gives it a fair about more objectivity than its corporate sponsored brother.

[ArabiaTerra]

Independent means free from outside influence how can a scientist be independent if he is being funded by an enviromental group.

 

What? As opposed to being funded by an oil company?

[Evil Inky]

I'm not much cop at posting links and I don't have the stuff to hand so you will have to wait till I am home again . or you could look it up on the internet. try looking for records of sun spot activity and tempreture graphs on a global scale.

 

I did and found the following:

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6290228.stm

 

According to the above study ( published July 2007 ), over the last 20 years, solar output has been declining while global temperatures have been rising.

[sheepshagger]

Independent means free from outside influence how can a scientist be independent if he is being funded by an enviromental group.

 

What? As opposed to being funded by an oil company?

 

never for one minute did i say a scientist funded by oil companies would be impartial but you are quite clearly stating that scientists funded by enviroMENTALists are.

everybody is swayed by their own beliefs no side is completely correct

but i will stick to my point that there is a hell of a lot of scare mongering going on, and demascus just go have a look at the accounts posted for the enviromental charities in the uk should give you quite a start.

then figure it out for yourself on a world wide scale