Do you spik dialect tae your bairns?

[Spinner72]

Im hed a look 'roon d an canna fin onything similar tae dis, feel free tae merge if need be mods!

 

Kinda promted by annider thread whar somane mentioned dat dir bairn widna keen whit something wis if dey caa'd it da proper (shetland) neem.

 

I'm a firm believer in avoidin knappin tae bairns at all costs. Aa books read as stories ir translated "on da fly", dir nae waye i could knap wir peerie lass tae sleep!

 

Am i da only ane?

[Trønder]

I'm in Norway, but I can relate. You should write a children's book in Shetland...

[TYR/RAGNAROK]

Oh min dis is whit am haen tae du ivery damn day! i constantly am haen tae repeat me bairns speech in shaetland! hit drives me mentyl, da amoont o knappin dat gaes on is unbelievabl, me bairns ir twa an a haaf an fowir an a bit, so dy ir pikin hit up fae me...slowly,

Da ting is dat naerly aa da parents i ken knapp tae dir bairns, me sistir is wan o da wurst, day myt as weel com fae bludy england!

 

da language is changin fast an is becomin mare o a english wi shetland tone.

hits a shame dir left hit sae layt but dir teeching shaetland in da skuls noo. so mibee dirs hoop yit?

 

av threatind tae send da bairns tae whalsa tae git a shaetland accent, dir is annidir opshun dow.....

am sayd tae da wyfe if dis is gaen tae b da future den am gaen tae ask da Good fok o da faroes is i kin com an byd dayr.

[Spinner72]

On dis subject, i wis discussin wi family aboot presents, an laid doon da only condition dat whitever dey got wisna a spikin thing!

 

Winder if dirs much o a market fur dialect spikin toys?

[Trønder]

On dis subject, i wis discussin wi family aboot presents, an laid doon da only condition dat whitever dey got wisna a spikin thing!

Wouldn't the speaking toys be using a Californian dialect anyway? Not exactly the Queen's English... hehe

[Ghostrider]

....hits a shame dir left hit sae layt but dir teeching shaetland in da skuls noo. so mibee dirs hoop yit?

 

Yeaya, dat's fine an weel, bit wha is gyaan ta teech da teechirs. Fortee yeer ago haf idda natif eens wir spokken is muckle propir Ingleesh trow dir time dat dey wir furyat da haf a Shetlin, whit man dey be laek noo?!

[Trønder]

Here in Norway we are now working to create a written norm of Kven, a close relative of Finnish spoken by an estimated 2-8,000 in northern Norway. A Kven language council and a Kven institute has been established to lead this work and there will be a forum for the users to give their input. Norway is doing this as a consequence of the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages. The problem you have in Shetland is probably that you drown in the UK's obligations to Scots. The current languages covered in the UK are Cornish, Irish, Manx, Scots, Scottish Gaelic and Welsh. The fact that you are not on the list doesn't mean that you can't create a small language council/institute at the local college where they can collect words, make a norm and teach it in a class. Try to get some Scots funds for it, or oil money...

[DePooperit]

Laek I wis juist sayin (or wis I?) ithin anidder treed, da UK obligation ta Scots amoonts ta less as naethin onywye, an dem at's supposed ta be pittin hit forrit regairds it in mair or less da sam dialect terms at fock in Shaetlan tinks on Shaetlan. Trønder spaeks aboot makkin up a written form for Kven; bit in edder Shaetlan or Scotland, if you spaek aboot dat you git laached aff o da park, wi fock bringin up da sam aald examples o whit wye hit wid be oonpossible. As if Shaetlan wis in some wye different fae aa da idder tongues at's been gien a written form.

 

Hit's no sae muckle at Shaetlan is droondit ithin da UK obligation ta Scots (dat duisna exist) as droondit ithin da Scottish inferiority complex, sometimes caad da 'Scottish Cringe'. Da idee at you can some wye tyze bairns ta spaek Shaetlan ithoot takkin da maesures at idder plaeces is tuin ta win tae da sam end is a himmelsfaird. If we raelly wantit ta kyucker up da Shaetlan tongue, we wid white wi aa dis purlin aboot an dui da sam as idder plaeces is duin, no drittle efter Scotland whaar da situation is if ony thing waar as in Shaetlan. If I wis wantin ta big a boat, I wid gaeng an lairn fae somebody at wis biggit ene at wis flottin, no copy somebody at wis med ene at wis sucken.

 

Whaar dae'r nae will, dae'r nae wye.

 

Trønder, re. what you mention about the possibility of Shaetlan in the local college, you may be interested in my recent Shetland Life article here:

 

http://www.shetlandtoday.co.uk/shetlandlife/content_details.asp?ContentID=22805

[Trønder]

Laek I wis juist sayin (or wis I?) ithin anidder treed, da UK obligation ta Scots amoonts ta less as naethin onywye, an dem at's supposed ta be pittin hit forrit regairds it in mair or less da sam dialect terms at fock in Shaetlan tinks on Shaetlan. Trønder spaeks aboot makkin up a written form for Kven; bit in edder Shaetlan or Scotland, if you spaek aboot dat you git laached aff o da park, wi fock bringin up da sam aald examples o whit wye hit wid be oonpossible. As if Shaetlan wis in some wye different fae aa da idder tongues at's been gien a written form.

That is a real shame. If you had been a part of Norway you would no doubt be getting the same treatment as Kven, and there are no doubt also people in Finland that would consider Kven to be just another dialect of Finnish.

 

Da idee at you can some wye tyze bairns ta spaek Shaetlan ithoot takkin da maesures at idder plaeces is tuin ta win tae da sam end is a himmelsfaird.

I assume you use "himmelsfaird" to mean "death"...? We have more or less the same word here with "himmelferd".

 

If I wis wantin ta big a boat, I wid gaeng an lairn fae somebody at wis biggit ene at wis flottin, no copy somebody at wis med ene at wis sucken.

That is a good point. Doesn't that sentence also show quite a few Norn remnants? The infinitive "to big" looks a lot like "å byggja" if you cut the second syllable. Even though I think you use "biggit" for "building" I think it has its parallel in "bygt" and "bygget" (bokmål), and I believe you can find "byggi" in some dialects. The infinitive "(to) gaeng" looks a lot like "å ganga", again with the syllable cut, and "ene" and certainy "med" also look Scandinavian/Norwegian.

 

Trønder, re. what you mention about the possibility of Shaetlan in the local college, you may be interested in my recent Shetland Life article here:

 

http://www.shetlandtoday.co.uk/shetlandlife/content_details.asp?ContentID=22805

Thank you for the URL.

[DePooperit]

I assume you use "himmelsfaird" to mean "death"...? We have more or less the same word here with "himmelferd".

 

 

No - to me, himmelsfaird means a fantasy - something which can't be achieved. I'm not sure where I heard this word, though - it's not one I would use in everyday conversation.

 

 

If I wis wantin ta big a boat, I wid gaeng an lairn fae somebody at wis biggit ene at wis flottin, no copy somebody at wis med ene at wis sucken.

That is a good point. Doesn't that sentence also show quite a few Norn remnants? The infinitive "to big" looks a lot like "å byggja" if you cut the second syllable. Even though I think you use "biggit" for "building" I think it has its parallel in "bygt" and "bygget" (bokmål), and I believe you can find "byggi" in some dialects. The infinitive "(to) gaeng" looks a lot like "å ganga", again with the syllable cut, and "ene" and certainy "med" also look Scandinavian/Norwegian.

 

 

I don't think so, actually. 'big' and 'gaeng' are essentially Scots 'bigg' and 'gang' (probably Norse-influenced Scots, but not Shetland Norn as such) and 'med' is just the (or one) Shetland pronunciation of English 'made'. 'Ene' (only I spell it like this) is Scots 'ane'.

 

To get back to the original 'do you speak dialect to your bairns' point, I think there's a lot of concern about this in Shetland. However, there's also a lot of misunderstanding of the situation. For example, while some people speak English to children deliberately, a lot of people do so because that's what the children speak to them. Furthermore, I know families where both parents always speak Shaetlan to their children, and the children nevertheless speak standard English, to the extent that they are unable to pronounce Shetland words with the correct vowel sounds.

 

In other words, just speaking Shaetlan to your bairns isn't enough to stem the tide of standard English. There would need to be a whole community effort, including language consolidation and forms of activism (such as complaining about the SIBC non-dialect policy) which most Shetlanders would regard as 'no moaderate'. But you can't expect children to value their native tongue when almost all the media, including the Shetland media, is spoken or written in standard English.

 

It's usually the case, in discussions like these, that Scandinavian and other contributors see the value of what I might call the conventional approach to language development (codification - ie, codifying orthography, grammar, vocabulary) whereas Shetlanders and Scots contributors do not. This leads to a lot of misunderstanding.

 

I think the word 'you', as when you said that 'you' could teach Shaetlan in the local college, is an interesting point to focus on. In Shetland there is no 'you', in the sense of a substantial body of opinion interested in doing something about the native tongue. Rather, there are different individual 'takes', ranging from the idea that Shaetlan is naturally moribund and doesn't matter (or that it's good riddance) to frustration at the fact that it is dying out, but all essentially agreed on its 'dialect' status. That is, even those who are frustrated at its demise usually want it to live on as 'dialect'. I have always argued that this is impossible. You can't turn the clock back to the days when Shaetlan was learned by default, and if you don't want it to die out you have to tackle it in a different way.

 

I suspect that if Shaetlan orthography, grammar and vocabulary had been a fait accompli, then there would have been considerable enthusiasm for it in Shetland. Those who are frustrated at it dying out would have had something to focus on. But the dialect perception and the Scots literary ideology which underlies that perception means that such measures are regarded as irrelevant, impossible, and/or undesirable, not only by the general population but by many of those who are engaged in dialect promotion.

 

In Shetland, then, it is not the case that the language could be consolidated if the necessary measures were taken - as I used to think. Rather, it is the case that the language can never be consolidated because there is ideological opposition to the necessary prerequisites at every level of society. This is an almost exact copy of the Scots situation.

 

My experience at the UHI was a conflict of these two ideologies. I tried to treat Shaetlan (and Scots, for that matter) under the same general policy as the Gaels set out for Gaelic. The Edinburgh academics who were drafted in subsequently swept all that aside, deriding orthography as 'irrelevant', for example, and replaced it by the same sort of academic approach as is taken to Scots - ie, a descriptive, and essentially sociolinguistic, treatment, taught largely by people who can't even speak the language.

[Trønder]

No - to me, himmelsfaird means a fantasy - something which can't be achieved. I'm not sure where I heard this word, though - it's not one I would use in everyday conversation.

Well, it doesn't quite mean "death" here either. It is mostly used with regards to the Ascension of Jesus Christ.

 

I don't think so, actually. 'big' and 'gaeng' are essentially Scots 'bigg' and 'gang' (probably Norse-influenced Scots, but not Shetland Norn as such) and 'med' is just the (or one) Shetland pronunciation of English 'made'. 'Ene' (only I spell it like this) is Scots 'ane'.

With so much Old Norse in Scots, it easy to assume too much. Although "gang" could merely be a more conservative form, I suppose, as I assume that there was a longer form in English too at some point that has now been shortened to "go". Most Norwegians also say "gå" now instead of "ganga". I simply misunderstood "med". I'm not used to reading Shaetlan.

 

I suspect that if Shaetlan orthography, grammar and vocabulary had been a fait accompli, then there would have been considerable enthusiasm for it in Shetland.

I think you are correct. All it takes is a handful of very devoted individuals though.

[Spinner72]

To get back to the original 'do you speak dialect to your bairns' point, I think there's a lot of concern about this in Shetland. However, there's also a lot of misunderstanding of the situation. For example, while some people speak English to children deliberately, a lot of people do so because that's what the children speak to them. Furthermore, I know families where both parents always speak Shaetlan to their children, and the children nevertheless speak standard English, to the extent that they are unable to pronounce Shetland words with the correct vowel sounds.

 

Seems strange to end up knappin here, but i know it helps the understanding for all.

 

Sorry to pick out this one point, but i am wondering if you have any reasons in mind for this?

 

I'm very concious of letting our lass see too much TV, and i'm not referring to "junk". Some of Disney's daily offerings (for example) are great to interact with bairns to, a bit like sesame street was in our day, with plenty of colors, numbers, shapes etc.

 

However, i find myself biting my lip when joining in with the experience not to be constantly pointing out the "right" way to say things!

[Trønder]

Seems strange to end up knappin here, but i know it helps the understanding for all.

Oh, don't mind me, write Shaetlan all you like. I'll improve.

[DePooperit]

Spinner - sorry aboot da delay, I'm no been on dis forum for a while ower da 'festive saeson'.

 

Duis du mean da raesons why bairns is startin ta spaek Standard English?

 

If sae, I tink hit's braaly complicatit, bit hit could maybe be summed up in some wird or phrase laek 'swampit'. Dae'r been pressure on Shaetlan fae Standard English for a lang, lang time, bit hit's onnly i da last twinty or sae year at hit got ta whit you micht caa 'critical mass.'

 

I tink on it as a bit laek a nuclear explosion. You can pile on uranium, bit hit's onnly whin hit wins ta critical mass at hit blaas up. Da sam wye, da pressures apo da Shaetlan tongue is noo reached dat 'blaa up' stage. Dae'r nae wan raeson for dis - hit's da very fact at dae'r sae mony raesons - media, TV, schuil, population changes, general globalisation - at means at Shaetlan is deein oot.

 

Da trouble is naebody lippened dis, an even yit, few fock understaands it. Fock at wis concairned aboot da Shaetlan tongue wis wint ta tink at hit wid dee oot slowly, wi every generation lairnin less an less o da 'aald' wirds. You git dat tui, of coorse. Bit naebody lippened dis thing whaar ee generation - in some plaeces an some faimilies afore idders - wid juist loss da tongue suddenly an aatagidder. Hit happened in Lerwick first, an dan started ta spred oot inta idder plaeces. Whin I veesit Shaetlan noo, I'm braaly surprised whin I hear a peerie bairn, or even noo a teenager, spaekin Shaetlan ava.

 

Caase hit's a 'critical mass' phenomenon, at's happenin far mair suddenly as onybody lippened, da maesures at's bein tuin ta dui somethin aboot it - ie, dialect promotion - is no laekly ta hae muckle effect. Da onnly wye at dis is ever been duin in idder plaeces is wi a deleeberate language strategy - at da first step wid a been ta dui awa wi da 'dialect' approtch, wi hit's connotations o a haemaboot spaek lairned informally bi defaat. Comments on dis forums, an generally in Shaetlan, shaas at Shaetlan fock is juist no interestit in takkin da tongue abuin hit's tradeetional dialect status. Da aft-repeatit advice ta incomers no ta even try ta spaek Shetland is ee aspect o dis - whaar da tongue is seen as a dividin line atween 'native' an 'incomer' (ie, as exclusive) redder as a language o da plaece as a hael (inclusive). Obviously, if dae'r mair an mair incomers, an 'dialect' is regairded as exclusive ta 'native' spaekers an incomers is med a fuil o if dey try ta lairn ta spaek it, dan da dialect will dwyne an dee as less an less fock spaeks it. At laest dis seems obvious ta me. Da idee at you can still hae fock spaekin Shaetlan in a plaece at discourages fock fae spaekin Shaetlan is juist nonsense.

 

Dae micht a been a chance at, if Scots wid a gotten offeecial recogneetion apo da Mainland o Scotland, dan Shaetlan fock wid a reactit bi makkin Shaetlan offeecial. Whit Shaetlan fock wid never a duin for a guid raeson dey micht juist a duin oot o sheer damned ackwirtness. Bit da loo reaction ta Scots fae da new SNP government - sayin at Scots revival wid hae ta come fae da boddom redder as fae da tap - draas da final line anunder dis, an gies baith tongues dir liver drink.

[trowie246]

Am afraid my bairns are very englishfied in dir spaeking. I think there is a number of reasons for that. At one point my daughter and a boy were the only shetlanders in the school of a school roll of 15 pupils. Also t.v is an influence. I am guilty too of knapping to them as it's easy to fall into that trap when they are knapping to you.

 

I realised something had to be done when my eldest daughter couldn't pronounce loch but instead said it da sooth wye - lock. So now I try to avoid spaeking english to them and consciously try to use words that my mam and dad used in my own conversations.

 

I also have to admit that when they were little I taught them to say slippers instead of smuks as they called them something else.