Should drugs be legalised?

[Ally]

I've maybe said it elsewhere on the forum, but nivir leet :

 

the worst company to keep whilst completely sober is definitely the drunkard.

 

If you were sober in a room full of people exclusively on ecstasy they'd mainly be friendly, warm, perhaps a little too open and keen to dance. At worst they'd look a bit zombied and may be gurning away, but that's about it.

 

A room full of coke-heads would be a bit crap as they'd be loud and over the top. No worse than your average Edinburgh University student, really

 

Acid heads would be ok, although potentially quite surreal and a little disorientated.

 

Stoners could be anything from chatty to incomprehensible.

 

If folk were mainly on speed they'd just be yapping away and rather twitchy. Ironically some of the most boring people I have ever met have been on speed.

 

The booze room, however, would be awful. I love a drink, i really do, but there are few things as unsettling as a room full of drunks when you're stone cold sober.

 

It really does bring out the worst in some people. I was walking up George st (Edinburgh) after the bond movie last weekend at about half midnight and it was just hellish.

 

Groups of fat, boorish men loudly singing tuneless gibberish as they lumber up the street. A young pissed girl openly urinates whilst simultaneously trying to fathom her mobile phone. Meanwhile, the police are trying to sort out a drunken brawl between some students and a tramp. Across the road a hen night staggers out of a pub, clutching baccardi breezers and shouting obscenities at a passing crowd of lads who respond with the same. A guy in a suit lies unconscious outside a weatherspoon's pub, clutching what looked like the remains of a kebab. It was just depressing.

 

Give me the room full of druggies any day. Now, where's my crack-pipe?

[Ross]

the ammount of tax's the government could get would be huge.

 

Huge ammounts of organised crime would be destroyed.

I'm all for legalisation. But the huge taxes on drugs that would enevitably be applied by the gov, could potentially spawn a black market.

I think the illegal drugs trade is far too lucrative to be abolished. I mean look at the amount of black market booze and ciggies there are floating about.

 

But then I suppose on the other hand if there was a realible source of clean substances. Users would prefer that and use the facilitys. Slowly forcing the baddies out of buisness.

[Fjool]

huge taxes on drugs that would enevitably be applied by the gov, could potentially spawn a black market.

 

The current black-market in tobacco and alcohol consists of ordinary products being sold pre-tax. Few people home-grow tobacco (although you are allowed to), or distill their own vodka (prohibited). Overall, the product quality remains high, despite those that would attempt to avoid paying tax on it.

 

I think that most people want to be legal and quite happily buy the majority of their booze and fags from licenced, taxed sources. Yes, there will remain a black-market but the overall quality will increase.

 

It has to be better than the current situation whereby the government get none of the revenues and the substances are cut with all sorts of nasty, carginogenic, poisonous, extra-addictive substances.

 

The black-market would potentially shift from being lucrative to highly-sophisticated drug-baron operations, with the arms and technology to overpower most smaller nations, to small-time tax evaders.

[Ross]

The black-market would potentially shift from being lucrative to highly-sophisticated drug-baron operations, with the arms and technology to overpower most smaller nations, to small-time tax evaders.

 

I know, my girlfreind basically said the same as i was mid post.

 

distill their own vodka (prohibited)

 

Mmmm home-distilled potato juice.

[JustMe]

Fjool wrote

The current black-market in tobacco and alcohol consists of ordinary products being sold pre-tax. Few people home-grow tobacco (although you are allowed to), or distill their own vodka (prohibited). Overall, the product quality remains high, despite those that would attempt to avoid paying tax on it.

 

Not so.......there are certainly counterfeit cigarettes imported from wherever such things are made and some of them are said to be dangerous. There is also a big market in counterfeit drugs........the sort you get from the doctor. At best some are simply some sort of sugar pill instead of what they ought to be and in the worst cases the pills can kill.

 

Never seen any myself but I hear that imitation drinks are also available. At best some cheap product in a branded bottle and at worst some concoction from a back street factory that could be lethal even when taken in "normal" quantities.

[Guest Anonymous]

well i always use the example of what happened when they made alcohol illegal in america it was a disasterous policy. drugs illegal in this country is also a disaster , the country is awash and it is criminal organisations and rogue states that pockets the vast profits.

[Fjool]

Not so.......there are certainly counterfeit cigarettes...counterfeit drugs........imitation drinks...

 

I am sure you are correct, JustMe, when you say that these things exist. Just as counterfeit watches, perfumes and clothes exist.

 

On the whole, however, I suspect that such things form the minor part of the so-called black-market; the majority are conventionally produced and have 'fallen off the back of a lorry', so to speak.

[JustMe]

Not so.......there are certainly counterfeit cigarettes...counterfeit drugs........imitation drinks...

 

I am sure you are correct, JustMe, when you say that these things exist. Just as counterfeit watches, perfumes and clothes exist.

 

On the whole, however, I suspect that such things form the minor part of the so-called black-market; the majority are conventionally produced and have 'fallen off the back of a lorry', so to speak.

 

I fear that counterfeit goods are not as minor a part of the scene as you might think.

Customs find 7.2m fake cigarettes

Customs officers have seized 7.2m counterfeit cigarettes during a blitz on tobacco smuggling to the UK.

 

Handrolling tobacco weighing 1,387lb (629kg) was also recovered during the operation at Parcelforce's international hub in Coventry.

 

HM Revenue and Customs said it is thought the tobacco products were posted to the UK from China.

 

It said the smuggling operation would have avoided about £1.5m in duty payments to the government.

 

Graeme Anderson, head of division for detection in HM Revenue and Customs' central region, said the cigarettes were imitations of well-known brands sold in the UK.

 

"The proceeds from cigarette smuggling are often used to fund serious and organised crime such as drug smuggling.

 

Buying counterfeit tobacco products... provide a whole new set of risks to smokers

Graeme Anderson, HM Revenue and Custom

 

"The illicit cigarette trade breeds contempt for the law by encouraging otherwise honest people to trade with criminals."

 

He said Customs would pursue prosecutions for those involved in the smuggling.

 

"We are aware that most smokers buying cheap cigarettes are unlikely to realise they are buying counterfeit tobacco products which provide a whole new set of risks to smokers."

 

Tests on previous counterfeit hauls have revealed the cigarettes to contain up to 60% more tar, 80% more nicotine, and 133% more carbon monoxide.

 

Research has also shown that counterfeit cigarettes can contain three times the levels of arsenic, five times the level of cadmium and nearly six times the level of lead found in genuine brands.

Story from BBC NEWS:

 

Fake medicines 'a growing menace'

The European Union must put tougher measures in place to stamp out the growing problem of trading in counterfeit medicines, a report warns.

 

Professor David Taylor, of the University of London School of Pharmacy, said the problem had been concentrated in the developing world.

 

But the global nature of the drugs industry meant patients everywhere were now potentially at risk.

 

The UK regulator said a vigorous system of checks was already in place.

 

No supply chain is impenetrable

Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency

 

Some counterfeit medicines have been found to contain toxic substances, such as anti-freeze. Some have small amounts of the active substance, others none at all.

 

Professor Taylor, whose report is launched on Wednesday at the House of Commons, said increased rationing of drugs could play into the counterfeiters' hands.

 

Internet problem

 

He said: "Compared to the harm done by medicines counterfeiting in Africa and Asia, Europe is relatively safe.

 

"But there are growing risks, which will get worse if - for example - people believe that they cannot get new medicines that may benefit them for conditions such as cancer, dementia or influenza from publicly funded services."

 

World Health Organization statistics indicate 30% of medicines supplied in developing countries are fake.

 

In East European countries like Russia the proportion is 10%, while in wealthier areas like the UK it less than 1%.

 

Many of these have been purchased via the internet, but the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) is currently investigating three cases of fake treatments being supplied via the legal NHS medicines supply chain.

 

Professor Taylor's report calls for stronger legal penalties for medicine counterfeiting, and better controls over internet pharmacies, and entrepreneurs who trade in medicines.

 

He said the present system encouraged traders to buy medicines in countries where they are relatively cheap, and sell them on elsewhere at a profit.

 

While this was not illegal in itself, the fact that it was very difficult to monitor made it potentially attractive to counterfeiters.

 

The report, which was funded by a grant from the drugs firm Pfizer, also backs:

 

# Shortening the medicine supply chains between pharmaceutical manufacturers and pharmacies

 

# The introduction of 'track and trace' technologies that could allow product movements within Europe to be followed more closely by regulatory agencies

 

Matthew Worrall, of the Association of the British Pharmaceutical Industry, welcomed the report.

 

Many checks

 

He said: "Pharmaceutical companies work actively with the police, the medicines regulator and customs officials to combat counterfeiting and, through measures like tamperproof packaging and holograms, are working to make the crime more difficult to attempt.

 

"Patient safety is of the utmost importance and, while the strength of UK supply chain means the risk of encountering counterfeit medicines here is low, we must remain vigilant and crack down on this crime."

 

Richard Freudenberg, Secretary-General of trade body BAEPD (the British Association of European Pharmaceutical Distributors) said: "¿Firstly it is worth noting that the report clearly states that ethical parallel importers should not be blamed for the criminal actions of counterfeiters.

 

¿Parallel trade in pharmaceuticals is a legal, legitimate and highly regulated business, which delivers significant cost savings to the NHS. The import and sale of counterfeit drugs is an entirely separate and illegal activity.

 

¿There has never been a case of counterfeit medicines reaching UK patients through parallel distribution, despite the efforts of big pharma lobbyists to suggest such a link exists."

 

In a statement, the MHRA echoed the view that the legitimate UK pharmaceutical supply chain was tightly regulated, and had one of the best international records for being difficult to breach.

 

In addition, the MHRA said it operated a comprehensive anti-counterfeiting strategy, which included Europe's largest medicines surveillance scheme to spot-check medicines on the UK market.

 

MHRA inspectors had also stepped up the number of checks for counterfeits they carried out when inspecting pharmaceutical manufacturers and distributors.

 

However, it went on: "It is recognised that no supply chain is impenetrable - whatever the regulatory and surveillance safeguards that may be in place."

Story from BBC NEWS:

[Fjool]

Customs officers have seized 7.2m counterfeit cigarettes during a blitz on tobacco smuggling to the UK.

In 1999 there were 66 billion duty-paid cigarettes sold in the UK.

7.2 million is but 0.01% of that figure.

 

UK Tobacco Market: Consumers in the UK spent more than £15.72 billion on legal tobacco products in 2005.

 

Some interesting figures in the link above. It suggests that as much as 71% of hand-rolling tobacco avoided UK duty in 2005. No figures are given on whether these items were counterfeit; it seems to be including only legitimate items which were smuggled, cross-border traded or bought duty-free.

 

The proceeds from cigarette smuggling are often used to fund serious and organised crime such as drug smuggling.

A completely worthless statement.

 

World Health Organization statistics indicate 30% of medicines supplied in developing countries are fake. In East European countries like Russia the proportion is 10%, while in wealthier areas like the UK it less than 1%.

Seems that it might be a problem caused as much by the availability of the genuine article than anything else.

[JustMe]

In 1999 there were 66 billion duty-paid cigarettes sold in the UK.

7.2 million is but 0.01% of that figure.

 

7.2 million in one seizure.

 

Quote:

World Health Organization statistics indicate 30% of medicines supplied in developing countries are fake. In East European countries like Russia the proportion is 10%, while in wealthier areas like the UK it less than 1%.

 

Seems that it might be a problem caused as much by the availability of the genuine article than anything else.

 

Fake medicines are a problem caused by the availability of the genuine article???. Perhaps you might like to explain the logic behind that statement to the grieving relatives of someone who has died because the drug that person needed to keep them alive was denied to them by a criminal who chose to make a profit out of fake medicine.......and even that 1% for the UK is still a whole big heap of drugs.

 

Quote:

The proceeds from cigarette smuggling are often used to fund serious and organised crime such as drug smuggling.

 

A completely worthless statement.

 

What exactly is worthless about that statement?.

[Fjool]

7.2 million in one seizure.

 

Yes, but you would need 100 such seizures to bring the figure up to 1% of the total market. Are there this many seizures of a comparable size per year? I don't know, but I doubt it; maybe. All I'm pointing out is that a single news article about this seeming large seizure may be a distortion of the true situation.

 

Fake medicines are a problem caused by the availability of the genuine article???.

 

Not what I meant. The problem of availability arises where the genuine article isn't available and cost effective; the counterfeit market takes over to fill the demand. My point is merely that, when provided with the legit version, people most likely go for that. Nobody is willingly going to take dangerous, counterfeit medicine. This happens as a last resort; i.e. when the cost of the legitimate, so-called 'wonder drugs' proves too expensive for them.

 

Perhaps you might like to explain the logic behind that statement to the grieving relatives of someone who has died because the drug that person needed to keep them alive was denied to them by a criminal who chose to make a profit out of fake medicine.......

 

I'm really not sure what kind of a scenario you're describing here. I'm not advocating handing control of such medicines to the criminal element; quite the opposite. If anything I'm arguing for measures which simplify the entire process of getting correct medicines to those who want them.

 

and even that 1% for the UK is still a whole big heap of drugs.

It's relative. At the moment almost 100% of heroin is illegal in the UK; something like 95% of the market is 'counterfeit'.

 

My original statement was that "The current black-market in tobacco and alcohol consists of ordinary products being sold pre-tax." *Apart from 1% of the market, this is true. Arguing that a 1% counterfeit market is grounds for maintaining a 95% counterfeit market is and odd position.

 

What exactly is worthless about that statement?.

Well....the entire thing. Rewrite it as follows:

 

The proceeds from drug smuggling are often used to fund serious and organised crime such as drug smuggling.

 

/shrug

 

*Edit: 'Apart from' substituted in place of 'but for'

[crofter]

 

The booze room, however, would be awful. I love a drink, i really do, but there are few things as unsettling as a room full of drunks when you're stone cold sober.

 

 

Career as a barman doesn't appeal to you then?!

[crofter]

Paranoid people exist. Stoned people exist. Sometimes the two groups overlap and you get stoned, paranoid people but that doesn't automatically make every stoned person a paranoid person.

 

Although paranoia, even schizophrenia, can be caused by the (ab)use of cannabis.

[Fjool]

Although paranoia even schizophrenia, can be caused by the (ab)use of cannabis.

 

I thought that it was more widely believed that existing conditions are perhaps exacerbated. I've yet to read of any conclusive evidence to support the claim that it has actually been the cause of schizophrenia. Please feel free to fire any links you have in my direction since I'm not really up-to-date with this debate.

 

Almost certainly the paranoia caused by smoking is a temporary effect; rarely do users remain paranoid whilst not using the drug.

 

Regardless; my argument has never been that drugs are 100% safe. Alcohol causes damage to liver, brain, kidneys, gut; and may result in early dementia, addiction, obesity, and so on. Despite this, I do not advocate the prohibition of alcohol.

 

I was astonished to learn that one of the side-effects of the popular anti-depressant Prozac is "suicidal thoughts"; I learned this not long after being proscribed the damn things.

[crofter]

I thought that it was more widely believed that existing conditions are perhaps exacerbated. I've yet to read of any conclusive evidence to support the claim that it has actually been the cause of schizophrenia. Please feel free to fire any links you have in my direction since I'm not really up-to-date with this debate.

 

 

I don't think there is any conclusive evidence - yet. Paradoxically, some cannabinoids are reckoned to be antipsychotic; there is just not enough data available.

Maybe some prisoners could volunteer to get stoned every day and we could monitor their behaviour.... what? they're doing it already?!