crofter Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 "Instant access to reliable data" - not if you meet the stuxnet worm... Assassinating scientists is going too far though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibber Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 "Instant access to reliable data" - not if you meet the stuxnet worm... Assassinating scientists is going too far though If its a regime that has declared (albeit in somewhat equivical terms) it wants to destroy another state and backs groups such as Hamas and Hezbolla who unequivically say they want to destroy that same state then I would say that Iran employing scientists to build nuclear weapons goes further. They may not be building a bomb but as scoots makes clear, Israel doesn't have the luxury of completely ignoring the risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulb Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 does isreal not have the bomb. equally against the rules that the yanks want to bash iran for. I seem to remember them kidnaping the person who made it public. isreal has the same right to exists as any other state. without the threat of destruction or occupation. The same right should be applied to local arab population. if isreal could remember that they have obligations under the geneva convention re occupation and civiliam population. maybe they should also remember that waging war on a civilian population is a war crime as is forced removal of their homes. now if isreal was to attack iran then the iranians would be totally justified to respond in kind. you can't argue that one state has more right to exsist than another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crofter Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 They may not be building a bomb but as scoots makes clear, Israel doesn't have the luxury of completely ignoring the risk. Perhaps not, although they do have the luxury of already having nuclear weapons. Probably. And if the oil embargo means the Iranians forge closer ties with India and China to market their oil, bad news for Israel because both are nuclear powers. Probably. Bad news for Europe too, because they will still need the same amount of oil so the price will be driven up. Send the IAEA to monitor everything, but if the Iranian scientists are being targeted by "unnatural" events, they may not be too keen on interviews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crofter Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 does isreal not have the bomb. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordechai_Vanunu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoots Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 The "problem" in dealing with Israel having "obligations under the Geneva Convention" is that you are dealing with a race of people who, relatively recently, in historical terms, were being slaughtered and processed (literally) into pillow stuffing and lampshades, while the "civilised world" sat on their fat complacent arses, tutting and saying "Nope, must be made up. That nice Mr Hitler wouldn't do that. Even if he did, it's not as though they're OUR sort of people. And they did kill Christ...". When we did weigh in, it wasn't for them. It was for profit. Same goes for the U.S. They have very long memories, particularly of the part Britain played in the whole Palestine situation, after the war. You are dealing with an entire race that "never forgive, never forget". You have to look at all sides, put yourself in all of their shoes. Angry rhetoric, scolding, outrage... none of it does any good on a geo-political level, and even less when it practically encoded into their DNA, as with the sides in this conflict... Gibber, while Iran - and, to a far lesser extent, Iraq - are Aryan in their background, and you will find townships and villages of fair skinned, blue eyed folk living there, in this day and age, they are certainly in danger of becoming a minority. The Arabic influence has spread, even into Iran, for some time now. When was the last time you saw an Iranian that could pass for a non-moorish European? Sad. Another culture of massive historical importance, in danger of subsumption and destruction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibber Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 Send the IAEA to monitor everything, but if the Iranian scientists are being targeted by "unnatural" events, they may not be too keen on interviews. And they won't be too keen on inspections if they are building a bomb either. “The information indicates that Iran has carried out activities relevant to the development of a nuclear explosive device. The information also indicates that prior to the end of 2003, these activities took place under a structured programme, and that some activities may still be ongoing.†IAEA Nov 2011 According to the IAEA Iran was in non-compliance with the NPT a long time before any scientist was killed by Israel. Either they comply with the inspections they are obliged to under NPT or they don't, Israel's targeted assasinations of scientists doesn't free them from these obligations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crofter Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 Either they comply with the inspections they are obliged to under NPT or they don't, Israel's targeted assasinations of scientists doesn't free them from these obligations. Do you support secret missions to "enemy" countries to kill civilians? I agree that there should be inspections, but killing scientists will not help the process. It will do the opposite, and ultimately could lead to war. Who's interest will that be in? Well, whoever wins will get a lot of oil... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoots Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 As I said in my previous posts, as far as Israel is concerned, it is - literally - them against the rest of the world. The Americans, the British, the French (the latter, to them, being the Arab nations bedfellows), the Germans, the Russians, even the Chinese? They could care less if we all criticise them. Their intelligence networks span the world and even infiltrated the Arab nations. They spy on the British and Americans - their "allies" - as much as they do on their neighbours. They trust no one and rarely, if ever, ask for help. The world can shake their heads in disgust at their "outreach" programme for dealing with threats, it is water off a ducks back. As far as they are concerned, this is positive, decisive action over vacillation and useless debate. It's going to take a long time to change anything in that region. This goes back a couple of thousand years, remember. Ireland was only a few hundred and see how long that took - and it's still in danger of re-igniting if the eejits have their way! Toe-neee Bigpockets Blair can court the Arab nations all he wants, lining his coffers in the process (although, I'm sure he manages to retain his impartiality in the face of aaalllllll that cash... ). I do not think this odious little man, nor anybody else with such a "tainted" background (his even more odious missus once publicly lauded Palestinian women suicide bombers, remember? You can bet the Israelis do!! ) is going to make much of an impact or alter the situation in any positive way, IMO. It's going to take someone without such baggage, but able to command the respect of all concerned. Any takers? Because I can't think of any? But I can promise you this... If Iran continues with their nuclear programme (and they will), the Israelis will continue in their "outreach" programme, and they will escalate it as and when required. They are scared of no one. No one. That's a difficult mindset to get past. You have to start - as always - with the children, on both sides. Teaching them about negotiation, compromise, mutual respect, that's how I'd do it. But it's getting access and getting that started without getting shot or blown up by either - or BOTH - sides, that would be the kicker, if you could pull it off. Or you can just wait for the "Messiah" to sort it all out... :wink Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibber Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 Do you support secret missions to "enemy" countries to kill civilians? Yes, if it stops a nuclear war between Israel and Iran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoots Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 I think, without realising it, Orwell set out Israels defence/intelligence policy when he wrote the lines, which I have in my signature. As Gibber says, their policy is the few should be sacrificed for the many, if required. And if it's YOUR few, and THEIR many..? They would barely pause to consider the consequences for you and yours. That's what I mean when I keep describing them as "fierce" (NOT in the "work it, girlfriend" Beyonce-stylee!! ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crofter Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 Do you support secret missions to "enemy" countries to kill civilians? Yes, if it stops a nuclear war between Israel and Iran. What if it starts a war instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoots Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 They'll only start a war if there's money involved, or they thought that absolutely, definitely they would win it. Individuals don't count, in the grand scheme of things. Unless they top heads of state... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibber Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 Do you support secret missions to "enemy" countries to kill civilians? Yes, if it stops a nuclear war between Israel and Iran. What if it starts a war instead? Then no. And why are Israel's targeted killings of scientists somehow the start of the escalation? Iran didn’t have to instigate a nuclear weapons program, they can give full transparency to the IAEA whenever they like to show they are not currently developing weapons, they could even recognise and sign a peace treaty with Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Para Handy Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 If there was any luck in this world iran would cock it up and blow them selvs up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now