National Anthem

[Tom]

The problem I have with most of these is that they glorify a very specific version of Scottishness - generally the one put forward for the tourists, but which doesn't actually represent the identities of a great many people in Scotland. I'm, of course, biased in noting that songs about fighting the English or referencing noble Highlanders and bagpipes are not part of the cultural history of many of those in Shetland - but also many other populations in Scotland. And there are far more Glaswegians than Highlanders, for example.

 

(It's like Gaelic language programming in Shetland)

 

An anthem needs to be something that dearly all of the nation can identify with and claim ownership of. As not all of Scotland is highland glens and not all Scots reside in picturesque highland moors, I'd have to question the use of an anthem which focused on that as defining characteristics of Scotland and the Scottish.

 

That said, I think Scotland the Brave is certainly the most anthem-sounding of all of those and is already probably by far the most recognised.

[Pooks]

I would have to disagree. I think that 'Flower of Scotland' is the more recognised tune nowadays.

 

Catering for all of Scotland is a difficult one, especially when you have certain regions that still maintain they are not a part of Scotland...don't know which parts that might be though...

[JustMe]

"Flower of Scotland" is a fine song for Rugby matches but I have to wonder if the overall theme of the song is too much "anti English" rather than "pro Scottish"

[Stan]

The Royal Scottish National Orchestra had a recent online poll which had five candidates; Flower of Scotland, Highland Cathedral, Scotland the Brave, Scots Wha Hae! and A Man’s a Man for A' That. The results were:

 

Flower of Scotland 41%

Scotland the Brave 29%

Highland Cathedral 16%

A Man’s a Man for A' That 7%

Scots Wha Hae! 6%

 

So, less than half of those who bothered to vote want 'Flower of Scotland'. I'm afraid that this song as a 'national' anthem has had its day for a number of reasons. It doesn't sound good when sung by thousands. The bagpipes can't play it properly. Most of the song is about things that happened in the past and then says "These days are gone now and in the past they must remain". So why sing about it at every international and when the Tartan Army are on tour? Leave the downtrodden, sorry for ourselves, paranoia to other nations. The lyrics mention stuff like "we can still rise now and be a nation again...". I'm sorry guys, but I'm a bit more proud of my country than that. We are a nation that has had significant achievements by groups of people and individuals as 'Scots' or representing Scotland since the times being sung about. We have also stood against many a tyrant and aggressor since then and as part of the greatest union of nations there has ever been, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Many Scottish Regiments were proud to be British AND Scottish while marching under the Union Flag and singing God Save the Queen (or King). It is possible to be proud of both you know.

 

As a Rangers supporter, I've been told that it's wrong to sing about battles that happened many centuries ago and "what has that got to do with football?" by the same jolly jacobites that sing about battles that are even older! My friends in their 'See You Jimmy' hats and wigs are being little hypocritical methinks.

 

If a Shetlander won a gold at the Olympics, what flag would they like to see going up the flagpole? The Union Flag? The Scottish Saltire? The 'let's pretend we're Scandinavian' Shetland flag? Or the Norwegian flag? Regardless, they would find that the tune being played would be the only National Anthem we have - God Save the Queen. Now, I'm not totally immoveable on the subject of this ditty. We all know the tune. I think we should keep it - it's no more of a dirge than Flower of Scotland. Perhaps we can change the lyrics though. The present lyrics make it sound like a prayer rather than an anthem. However, I don't think we should ditch the monarch from the song. I think any new lyrics should incorporate our pride in being Scottish and pride in being part of a union that stands for liberty, freedom etc. Mention of the Queen/King is a must. Believe it or not, our monarchy is still greatly respected and admired throughout the world. There are many people around the world that are jealous of our constitutional set-up. We should be proud of that fact too. So, we retain the current tune to 'God Save the Queen' but alter the lyrics - bring it a bit more up to date. Each nation within the Union could then amend the lyrics to mention their own country.

 

On the RSNO's poll I voted for 'Scotland the Brave'. It's a decent tune, known all over the world as Scottish. If we chose this as our anthem I think we would need to change the lyrics to this also - along the lines as I've mentioned previously regarding God Save the Queen.

 

On a lighter note, I thought that the mad-capped, funsters that follow the Scottish football team and baring their backsides to all and sundry had already chosen their anthem. It's a song that appears to have superseded "We Hate Jimmy Hill, He's Rather Effeminate" (or something similar) and "What a Load of Rubbish" which was top of the pops in Argentina in 1978 and re-entered the charts again sometime during Scotland's defeat by Morocco in France in 1998 and remained there for about another 4 or 5 years. And then came the song that sums up all that is Scottish, all that it means to be a footsoldier in the 'Tartan Army', the song is of course . . altogether now . . ."Doe, a deer, a female deer; Ray, a drop of golden sun; Me, a name, I call myself . . ."

[Rourkes Drift]

There are some very well thought out and interesting points raised by Stan, I agree with much of what he says regarding Scottish anthemns. Also, there is much work to do in terms of looking at lyrics.

 

It is interesting to note though that if Glasgow Rangers . However, I say this as a fellow supporter: Had Rangers from the outset given a bit more equal prominance to the Scottish flag rather than the Union flag, then perhaps we would have been seen more as a Scottish club today, and Celtics allegiance to the Irish flag would have been shown up for the stupidity that it is.

 

As things stand however, we stuck ourselves overwhelmingly with the Union flag, and in turn pandered to the ills of bigotry and sectarianism. Don't get me wrong, I think it is right that Rangers fly the Union flag over their stadium and it annoys me when people say otherwise. Nevtheless, I think we should have constantly given equal weight to the Union flag.

 

Only now have Rangers as a club given more recognition to the Union flag by using it on the card display for European games, and also putting the saltre on their shirt. Perhaps we as a club have now seen sense since we can make the blue and white saltire our own, thus making the Celtic flag flying over Parkehead look all the more ridiculous in a secular, 'modern, forward looking' Scotland.

 

By the way I would suggest Highland Cathedral for Scottish anthemn.

[Rourkes Drift]

Correction: In my last post, I did of course mean St Andrews Flag when saying 'Union Flag'.

 

Apologies for any confusion.

 

[dB]

and Celtics allegiance to the Irish flag would have been shown up for the stupidity that it is.

 

thus making the Celtic flag flying over Parkehead look all the more ridiculous in a secular, 'modern, forward looking' Scotland.

 

 

Can you explain exactly what you're on about here?

 

Thanks.

[muddybay-kyebeoy]

I'm pretty sure that the Saltire and the Union Jack fly side by side on Ibrox - is this not an equal measure? Anyway, flags mean zilch to me.

 

On topic, I think Highland Cathedral was written by a German. Nothing wrong with that, I just think there should be enough good Scottish songs to choose from. And anything with the word Cathedral perhaps doesn't fit our multi-cultural society (there's one for the PC brigade to roar aboot!)

 

It's not a great list to choose from, but I like Scotland the Brave. Unfortunately I only know the schoolground version (Here comes the highland granny, big ti....... )

[Rourkes Drift]

Sorry - I didn't make myself clear.

 

Celtic started flying the Irish Tricolour over Parkhead due to their Irish roots. Ok, nothing wrong with that. But, the big mistake Rangers made was to bring emphasis on the Union Jack, when we should have brought more emphasis on the St Andrews flag.

 

This way, the development of both clubs would have been difference since Rangers identity would have been more Scottish than British, and therefore Celtics would have probably been more Irish than Scottish. But, as things have turned out, Celtic have this 'Irish connection', and Rangers have this 'British connection'. Both fuel bigotry.

[dB]

Sorry - I didn't make myself clear.

 

Celtic started flying the Irish Tricolour over Parkhead due to their Irish roots. Ok, nothing wrong with that. But, the big mistake Rangers made was to bring emphasis on the Union Jack, when we should have brought more emphasis on the St Andrews flag.

 

This way, the development of both clubs would have been difference since Rangers identity would have been more Scottish than British, and therefore Celtics would have probably been more Irish than Scottish. But, as things have turned out, Celtic have this 'Irish connection', and Rangers have this 'British connection'. Both fuel bigotry.

 

 

Fair enough.

 

I didn't understand what you meant by the "stupidity" of Celtic flying an Irish flag and also your statement that included "ridiculous" about flying a Celtic flag.

 

For your information the permanent flags flown at Celtic Park are the Scottish, British, and Irish. Not quite sure what brand of bigotry this promotes. Perhaps you'd be good enough to explain.

[moorit]

Sorry - I didn't make myself clear.

 

Celtic started flying the Irish Tricolour over Parkhead due to their Irish roots. Ok, nothing wrong with that. But, the big mistake Rangers made was to bring emphasis on the Union Jack, when we should have brought more emphasis on the St Andrews flag.

 

This way, the development of both clubs would have been difference since Rangers identity would have been more Scottish than British, and therefore Celtics would have probably been more Irish than Scottish. But, as things have turned out, Celtic have this 'Irish connection', and Rangers have this 'British connection'. Both fuel bigotry.

 

 

Fair enough.

 

I didn't understand what you meant by the "stupidity" of Celtic flying an Irish flag and also your statement that included "ridiculous" about flying a Celtic flag.

 

For your information the permanent flags flown at Celtic Park are the Scottish, British, and Irish. Not quite sure what brand of bigotry this promotes. Perhaps you'd be good enough to explain.

 

Have they not got round to flying the Swedish flag as well yet in honour of King Henrik MBE ?

[Rourkes Drift]

Ok, those are fair points DB. However, I don't think that any of the Celtic support will fly much of the Scottish flag, and certainly none will fly the British flag. Surely the amount of tricolours flown at Celtic Park do no equal the amount of Irish men in the support? Why can't Scottish supporters fly their national flag? Or, could it be because all the other things that the tricolour reflects as being part of the Celtic tradition.

 

The same can of course be said of Rangers with the Union Jack. Likewise, very few Rangers fans will fly the Scottish flag. I wish that more Rangers supporters did fly the Scottish flag as opposed to the Union Jack because we are a Scottish club first and foremost. (then a British Club)

 

My point generally is therefore is that flags = identity = and sometimes can = bigotry (and in some cases) = sectarianism. But, if taken positively, then flags can be good, and the outpouring of national pride in Germany over the past weeks gives indication to this. Flags and national anthems are very important insofar as they give people something to identify. Around Shetland for example during the World Cup I have seen Portuguese, Argentinian, German AND England flags.

[tirvaluk]

Is there not a verse in God Save The Queen , that says something about killing the barbarian Scots? It is not sung in public nowadays.

Also Highland Cathedral is a lovely tune, written by 2 German composers, but as far as I am aware, they didn't write any words to it, so it would be ideal for a national anthem, everybody could just hum it, could save some poor tory politician some embarresment in the future,

[Ghostrider]

Is there not a verse in God Save The Queen , that says something about killing the barbarian Scots? It is not sung in public nowadays.

Also Highland Cathedral is a lovely tune, written by 2 German composers, but as far as I am aware, they didn't write any words to it, so it would be ideal for a national anthem, everybody could just hum it, could save some poor tory politician some embarresment in the future,

 

So it would seem, in the sometime used Verse 6:

 

Lord grant that Marshal Wade

May by thy mighty aid

Victory bring.

May he sedition hush,

And like a torrent rush,

Rebellious Scots to crush.

God save the Queen!

 

I'm not sure the sometime used Verse 8 would much impress one of our EU partners, or certain elements of christianity if sung these days either:

 

From France and Pretender

Great Britain defend her,

Foes let them fall;

From foreign slavery,

Priests and their knavery,

And Popish Reverie,

God save us all.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Save_the_Queen

[NewMagnie]

The problem and source of dissent, then, is lyrics.

 

We could opt for a purely instrumental national anthem - my vote is for 'Duelling Banjoes'.

 

This would mean, of course, that the entire poulation would have to learn to play the said banjo or similar stringed instrument - and to carry it with them at all times the national anthem is likely to be played.

 

It does pose certain logistical problems, I accept, but think of the boost to the banjo/mandolin/guitar industry. We could set up a huge factoryand employ all the staff from Scatsta!

 

If caught on the hop of course, it could be sung a la 'diddle-ing-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding....'