SNP/BNP?

[McFly]

Spankybear, I disagree with you entirely.

 

And before I say more I would like to point out that I am not an SNP voter, I am not a patriotic Scot (in fact I think patriotism in general is dangerous and pointless) and I am disgusted by racism in any form, whoever it is directed against.

 

I take issue with your assertion that the SNP:

'stands for the preservation of the national and ethnic character of the British people'. Swap British for Scottish.

 

Where are you getting this from?

 

I have never heard any member of the SNP calling for English people to be "re-patriated". I have never heard any of them talk about racial purity in any way. In fact, they seem to me to be, generally, fairly pro-diversity as far as culture and race in Scotland are concerned.

 

These are serious charges you're making. What are you basing them on?

[McFly]

I'm not sure why I feel the need to defend them on this but here's the very first article from the SNP's charter of core values:

 

1. No one country and no one human being is worth more or less than any

other.

We believe in the right of sovereign peoples to self-determination. We believe that

Scotland should be an independent country, equal with other countries in Europe

and the world.

We are committed to co-operation amongst nations in pursuit of peaceful coexistence

and the creation of a stable international community. We believe nations

must be free to decide how they co-operate to create economic prosperity, deliver

social justice and protect the environment.

We affirm our commitment to the Charter of the United Nations, and its demand

that all nations protect and assert the human rights of the individual.

The SNP is committed to the principle of equality of opportunity. That means the

prohibition of discrimination on the grounds of race, gender, age, sexuality, faith,

belief, ability, status or social background in the exercise of constitutional rights.

The SNP's commitment to equality of opportunity demands an end to poverty and

in particular to child poverty, which blights the life-chances of so many young

people of Scotland.

 

Seems pretty unambiguous on race discrimination to me.

[jim-jam]

Can you imagine the BNP doing this?

 

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41586000/jpg/_41586086_stgeorgesnp203.jpg

 

 

 

SNP MP flies the flag for England Friday, 21 April 2006

 

A Nationalist MP has flown the St George's Cross from his Stornoway office to say thanks to English constituents who have voted SNP.

 

The gesture on Friday came on the last working day before St George's Day.

 

Angus MacNeil, MP for the Western Isles, said he was also flying the St George Cross flag as a 'mark of respect' to England.

 

He said: "I feel it is important that we as Scots recognise the achievements of our neighbours."

 

From the BBC website - Click here for the original article

[spankybear]

I have never heard any member of the SNP calling for English people to be "re-patriated". quote]

 

if you're not aware of any member of the SNP calling for english people to be repatriated, then you obviously don't pay much attention to the news. They are often in trouble for that sort of thing, and as I stated before, they are often blaming problems on the English. Also, all too often, those that vote for the SNP are voting in the hope of removing the english.

 

Like it or not, their is a deep rooted racism against the english in Scotland, people just turn a blind eye to it as it's gone on for so long.

 

an SNP party worker was in trouble recently for sending a press release that attacked the union flag.

 

the press release states: "For almost 300 years, the Union jack, which was commonly referred to as the butcher's apron by most Scots, has been soiled by the actions of successive British governments, not just here in Scotland but throughout the world. "Under the Union flag our own nation witnesses some of its most serious trauma; the suppression of the clans, the Highland Clearances, the disproportionately heavy losses sustained by Scots in Britain's military adventures, and internationally the Union flag's reputation is little better."

 

it also states: "the first concentration camps in history emerged," under the shadow of the union flag.

 

how, exactly, is this not anti english?

 

Alex Salmond, the SNP leader, refused to condemn the language used in the press release.

 

As i said before, they may not come straight out and say it, but it's an underlying current within its foundations. It's background is that of a right wing party (whether you like to admit it or not, this is fact) so only a naive person would think that there is still no evidence of that line of thought within its makeup.

 

 

and to jim jam...and others....is any thread on this forum capable of working on a non semantic level.

 

at what point did i say the BNP and SNP are EXACTLY alike.

 

and yes, like all parties, not everyone is tarred by the same brush. But that does not mean that things do not go on.

 

there are plenty of people who sympathise with the BNP on a number of issues, such as:

The ending of immigration to the UK (argued as we struggle to deal with the influx of foreigners)

Encouraging greater share ownership and worker co-operatives.

The introduction of corporal punishment for petty criminals and vandals, and the introduction of capital punishment for paedophiles and terrorists and its reintroduction for murderers.

A mandatory jail term for anyone assaulting an NHS worker.

 

yet they don't support the BNP as they don't agree with the very obvious racism.

 

But it doesn;t mean that people disagree with everything they stand for...hence there is a shift in support for them

[jim-jam]

Could you post a link to the article so we can read it in context?

[Njugle]

and where is all this wealth and money going to come from?

 

answer me this one question....why do we need autonomy?

 

A tertiary glance through the GVA stats on the National statistics website reveals Scottish regions in the top 3 for the UK in both NUTS2 and NUTS3 sections.

 

And it's not a question of "need" all we "need" is food water and shelter. It's what is the most beneficial to all. If there were no oil in the north atlantic, or whisky production, or fish farming the chances of there being a referendum on independance encouraged by parliement would have been greatly increased years ago.

 

Since then we've had the implementation of devolution, from parliement. The concept being that a region may well be better governed by people within the region. The process of devolution was proposed to continue, giving greater autonomy to each and every local region, because that is how they would be best served. Remove petty local issues from parliement and let them be resolved locally. Independance is merely a variation on this. It's not like Scotland would rebuild Hadrians wall to keep the English out. Switzerland is absolutely independant. Not even within the EU, and yet they uphold 3 languages and trade with the whole world. There is absolutely no history of xenophobia in Scotland.

 

The "anti-English" paranoia you seem intent on focusing on comes from being governed from afar, and serious regional issues not being understood. There is also a history of Scotland being exploited by the English, that may cause resentment in some quarters i'll grant you, but once again i'll ask you to refrain from your erroneous usage of the word "racism". The vast majority of "anti-English" issues as you are

referring to them are not anti-English at all, but relate to the distant Government.

 

Also could you please provide a link to a story of SNP members asking for English people to be repatriated. I don't recall any such thing.

 

And for the record, i didn't vote SNP either.

[jim-jam]

and to jim jam...and others....is any thread on this forum capable of working on a non semantic level.

 

Pardon? What have I done to offend you? But while you're having a go at me, surely the basis af any discussion is based on a semantic level. That is, after all, what language and the expression of ideas is based on. Should people just use any words thay want and expect everyone else to understand what they mean?

[McFly]

They are often in trouble for that sort of thing

 

Not good enough my friend.

Any evidence of that?

 

how, exactly, is this not anti english?

 

Ummm, they're talking about the UNION flag. Scotland is part of the union.

But, aside from the technicalities, what you're quoting was a press release written by the aide of an SNP MSP. The MSP subsequently claimed that the release never had her approval and the aide resigned.

 

Here's what Alex Salmond said:

Alex Salmond, the SNP leader, yesterday refused to condemn the language used in the press release. Asked if he supported the comments attributed to Ms White, Mr Salmond said: "She didn't make any comments. That's the point. As I understand it, she didn't table the motion the press release was based on because she didn't agree with comments in the motion.

 

"There was obviously a breakdown in communications. We accepted that there had been confusion, which was why Mark wasn't disciplined. He decided to resign as a result of that. That's his decision. That's unfortunate, but when a relationship breaks down between an MSP and his or her members of staff, that is an outcome that is likely."

 

While I agree that if Mr. Salmond had been backing up the general tone of the release, he would be guilty of at least neglect, the quote above hardly amounts to an admission of responsibility. Who knows what the reporters question was? No he did not say "I condemn the language in this press release". Was he asked to condemn it?

 

Or maybe I'm just being naive by attempting to read between the lines in the media

[McFly]

This is from Wikipedia, perhaps not the most rigorous of sources, but it gives an idea of general party policy from an independant source.

 

The SNP's policy base is, by and large, in the mainstream European Social Democratic mould. For example, amongst their policies are a commitment to unilateral nuclear disarmament, progressive personal taxation to redistribute wealth from rich to poor, the eradication of poverty, renationalisation of the railway system, a pay increase for nurses and so on. They are also committed to an independent Scotland being a full member state of the European Union, as well as supporting Scottish entry to the single European currency, although there are some members who disagree with this.

 

Contrary to the expectations of many, the SNP are not an expressly republican party, although they are committed to holding a referendum on the issue following the attainment of independence. Many SNP members are republicans though, and both the party student and youth wings are expressly so. The SNP is committed to maintaining an independent Scotland within the Commonwealth of Nations.

 

The SNP has a clear left-of-centre policy base, although not as left-oriented as it once was. In the 1997 General Election campaign, the Conservatives accused the SNP of being the most left-wing political organisation in Europe since the collapse of the Communist regimes in Eastern Europe. However such a view is more difficult to sustain in the present political climate with the SNP moderating many of its views on socio-economic issues, and the fact that they are no longer the most left-wing of the established political parties in Scotland with the emergence of the SSP (Scottish Socialist Party).

 

They don't sound very right wing to me. And apparently they're now less socialist than they once were.........

[spankybear]

rather than picking random points on my posts and arguing on them can you read the whole thing.

 

as i pointed out WHEN DID I SAY THEY WERE EXACTLY ALIKE????

 

people refer to the point of semantics, and then ignore the actual words used anyway.

 

and how head in the sand do you have to be to claim that there is no history of xenophobia or racism in scotland. I've lived all over scotland and come accross it everywhere i've been.

 

if you haven't experienced it, then fine, but how can you claim it most definately doesn't exist????

 

I have met Alex Salmond on a couple of occasions, and he is not an english loving man.

 

also, why is it on this site, if somebody has an opinion that others don't agree with, they are attacked as if wrong.

IT IS OPINION.

 

i do not see the point of the SNP, i disagree completely with their aims and hopes and I fail to see the point of independence. Or are we to go back to feudal law?

 

in these times of international dispute, it makes much more sense to continue on the road of uniting nations, not carving them up.

 

or are we to expect scotland to join the nuclear race so as to defend its borders?

 

racism: Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

 

how is this not the correct term.

 

How many times have you heard the phrase 'english b****rd'?

 

if this isn;t a racist comment, what's the point of using the word english? why not just b****rd?

 

and if there is no xenophobia or racism in scotland, then why is the BNP starting to be taken seriously within Scotland as well now.

 

Aberdeen in recent years have had BNP candidates running in local elections when, once upon a time, this would never have been tolerated within the city.

 

but yeah, we all love each other

[spankybear]

They don't sound very right wing to me. And apparently they're now less socialist than they once were.........

 

and politics is never shrouded in contreversy and double crossing etc.

 

also from wikipedia:

 

"From almost the instant the party was born, there have been ideological tensions present within the SNP. This was by and large a product of the way in which the party was formed, as an amalgamation of the left-wing National Party of Scotland, and the right-wing Scottish Party. The tensions were resolved in some way by the party officially taking no clear stance on the left-right issue."

 

So yeah, no right wing potential there at all

[McFly]

also, why is it on this site, if somebody has an opinion that others don't agree with, they are attacked as if wrong.

IT IS OPINION.

 

Pot, kettle, black

 

as i pointed out WHEN DID I SAY THEY WERE EXACTLY ALIKE????

 

You alluded to it:

 

Here:

 

personally, i don't see a big lot of difference

 

Here:

 

They are just as xenophobic as the BNP

 

and here:

 

The BNP constitution states that the party 'stands for the preservation of the national and ethnic character of the British people'. Swap British for Scottish. and how exactly is this different from what the SNP claim?

 

Ok. They have a history which includes amalgamation with a right wing party. Their current policies are not right wing, by any measure. How does this make them comparable to the BNP?

[Styles]

racism: Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

 

how is this not the correct term.

 

How many times have you heard the phrase 'english b****rd'?

 

if this isn;t a racist comment, what's the point of using the word english? why not just b****rd?

 

English is not a race, as Scottish is not a race. So you cannot be racist in that regard.

[spankybear]

as i said, can anyone say i am wrong????

 

Opinion: An opinion is a person's ideas and thoughts towards something. It is an assessment, judgement or evaluation of something. An opinion is not a fact, because opinions are not falsifiable.

 

Just because it is not the party's OFFICIAL line, does not mean that they don't have any right wing members or opinions.

 

again, why is it that just because someones opinion is not the same as everyone elses then they have to be attacked as if wrong???

 

Likewise, plenty of BNP supporters would argue that they are not racist, they are just pro britain.

 

and, Mcfly, why is it you claim to be attempting to read between the lines in the media, yet incapable of reading between the lines on anything else.

 

there HAVE been cases of members of the SNP having racist, xenophobic and prjudiced ideas, yet because the OFFICIAL line states that this isn't the case, then none of them are guilty of this.

 

Race: group of people, animals, or plants connected by common descent

alternative words: breed, clan, ethnic group, family, folk, genus, kind, lineage, nation, people, species, stock, tribe, variety

 

so i am sorry styles....BUT THERE IS AN ENGLISH RACE, SO IT IS RACIST.

 

on what grounds exactly were you claiming that it wasn't?

[McFly]

again, why is it that just because someones opinion is not the same as everyone elses then they have to be attacked as if wrong???

 

With all due respect, I think you're being paranoid here spankybear. What we're having here is a debate. That involves people with differing opinions trying to prove their point of view.

 

Nobody is attacking you. I certainly have no intention of doing so and it would sadden me to think that you're taking any of this personally.

 

as i said, can anyone say i am wrong????

 

Yes. I believe I can. I think you are wrong to compare the policies of the SNP with those of the BNP because any serious examination of those policies reveals that they are utterly different in detail and in essence.

 

Just because it is not the party's OFFICIAL line, does not mean that they don't have any right wing members or opinions.

 

You're absolutely right. But that's a long way from being correct in claiming that the SNP are the same as the BNP, which is plainly not true.

 

and, Mcfly, why is it you claim to be attempting to read between the lines in the media, yet incapable of reading between the lines on anything else.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by this.