Instrumental tuition charges

[JustMe]

Ghostrider wrote

Many of the posts don't have levels of work available to justify full time staff, there needs to be a good hard look taken at combining rolls in to single posts, making some posts part-time, or deleting them altogether.

Is this not what David Clark was starting to do?. Ok maybe he went about it the wrong way but we need a Chief Executive and a council that are prepared to prune the dead wood from the SIC.

[Tryop]

I agree completely with Ghostrider.

Why is it always a case with the council to increase costs such as dinner money and meals on wheels, and impose new costs such as the music tuition fee, hitting the young and old once again, and probably having a negative effect in the long term with pupils taking packed lunches instead of school meals, (which i believe to be the case in certain schools now), and pupils not taking up an instument to learn, or even stopping doing one that they may be learning at the moment because of the cost.

 

The council needs to reduce staff numbers, especially the support/classroom/playground assistants in schools before increasing costs (CHILD TAX) to balance any accounts.

The school i went to as a kid didn't have any support/classroom/playground assistants when i went, (the janitor and teachers did all the supervision that was required)but now my kids are at the same school and i think there are 7 extra assistants. Completely over the top for one primary school. Multiply that for every other primary/secondary school in Shetland and you can see why education in Shetland costs so much more per pupil than the Mainland.

[shetlander]

While other councils are figuring out how to provide free music lessons to raise educational attainment

 

Are they? From what I understand, most local authorities south are currently having to make unprecedented levels of cuts to balance the books. And unless the SIC gets its head out of the sand and shows some willing to bite the bullet, it will find itself in the same position in the financial years following on from this next one.

 

yet in recent years we've seen a whole slew of "Classroom Assistants" hired too, on reasonably decent money, and who knows what other roles have been created

 

Albeit a few years out of date now, but some interesting statistics in the last attachment of this link on comparative staffing levels in schools

 

http://www.shetland.gov.uk/coins/submissiondocuments.asp?submissionid=8641

 

In summary, the statistics for Shetland are:

 

- 12.3 pupils per staff member compared to 28.3 nationally (primary support staff)

- 17.1 pupils per staff member compared to 40.4 nationally (secondary support staff)

- 8.3 pupils per teacher compared to 10.2 nationally (secondary)

- 8.9 pupils per teacher compared to 13.1 nationally (primary)

 

I fully support the cuts being proposed, but so too staff cuts. Yes, pupil to staff ratios are always going to be lower in rural areas but if Orkney and the Western Isles can do it with less, why can't Shetland?

[Ghostrider]

^^ It would be interesting to know how Hayfield House and the council can try and justify a level of support staff in excess of double that of the national average.

 

Certainly we will have a level somewhat above given the disproportionate effects of factoring in the smaller isles schools etc, but more than double can't entirely be set aside on that basis alone. It no doubt is a "nice" situation for all of those involved, but its not a justifiable or maintainable situation in the current funding climate. When cuts become necessary providing minimum practical service provision levels in the most cost effective way are the benchmark from which to work, not desirable service levels at almost any cost.

 

On the face of it, were the education service operating in a competitive business enviornment instead of a public service provision one, they would already be bust, flattened by an excessive and uncompetitive wage bill.

[MJ]

a couple of questions that spring to mind is the music tuition fees per child or per instrument taught? If my child doesn't recieve lessons for a month due to staff illness, school closures etc does that mean I don't have to pay for a month (it has happened often over the last 3years).

 

@shetlander

in england there has been quite a concerted effort to get children into taking up musical instruction as uptake was very poor.

 

What I can never figure out is why councils need to spend thousands on gimmicky glossy brochures that folk never read.

Got one in front of me. "On the Cusp" apparently launched in November 2009 and quote

 

This strategy is for everyone in Shetland. It is important that it is widely available and relevant.

 

anyone outside the relivant council departments and "trusts" actually read it?

[ArabiaTerra]

It was only 40 years ago that I was starting school. There were just under 100 pupils, catered to by a headteacher, who teached full time, and three other teachers, a few intinerant specialist teachers on one or two days each per week, the cookhouse staff, one part time caretaker and a couple of part time cleaners. That was it. The school functioned perfectly adequately on it, and a good standard of education was to be had for anyone willing to take it up.

 

A few years later the Headteacher role became non-teaching, a few more, they hired a school secretary, a few more, a janitor. After I left they hired a second secretary and the deputy headteacher role also became non-teaching. I'm not saying all of those changes were un-justified, and I've left out the increase in numbers of teachers and cookhouse staff, as it was a fast growing school roll, which like everything else, admin tasks were no doubt increasing year on year. But you do wonder if such increases in non-teaching paypackets were really justified, when as best as I can recall, the school roll always remained below 200.

You have to remember though, that it was about this time that paperwork and bureaucracy began to increase exponentially in schools. Dad was a teacher and I remember him taking stuff home most nights of the week for years during the 80's just to keep up with the paperwork.

 

Mind you, you could probably say the same thing about the civil service in general since Thatcher.

[soljey]

Many of the so-called "classroom assistants" previously mentioned are in fact ASN auxiliaries. They assist the classroom teacher with Additional Support Needs pupils - many of whom may need one-to-one assistance.

 

Many years ago - and I mean when I was a school pupil, these pupuils would have been shunted off to a "special school" or left to fall by the wayside and classed as being "thick".

[Longdog]

I'm afraid that unless you are actually a class teacher you haven't a clue.

 

Times change and the need for a fully inclusive classroom and curriculum covergae that there is now, never mind assessment, targeting and testing means it's all a very different beast from when I was a pupil and there needs to be alot more support both in the classroom and with nurture groups. That is if we are to hit government and LEA targets.

 

Try teaching a class of mixed ability pupils from SEN to G&T on your own, never mind the mix of 'average' children for a day and then tell me that ASNs and TAs are dead space. It's hard enough to manage it well with class support.

 

Even better see what happens to your own kid if they have individual needs, or what happens to your 'average' kid who get left to get on with it as others have more pressing needs...

 

Sorry but there's a lot of drivel being talked by people who obviously don't teach or spend time in a class room. Mine being a primary environment

[soljey]

Well said Londog.

 

I am NOT proposing a return to the 'old days'/ I am just illustrating what was once the (unacceptable) norm.

 

A lot of the discussion on this thread and on the one on the Blueprint seem to be focussing purely on the financial aspects of the education system. But the deciding factor should be what is best for our children's education - and how can we most efficiently achieve that. Not, here's a cash figure - let's see what we can shoehorn into it.

 

I am also a classroom teacher - in secondary.

[Ghostrider]

I'm afraid that unless you are actually a class teacher you haven't a clue.

 

Of course we don't, but a teacher also has a skewed view of things, as they cannot help but become somewhat indoctrinated by "system think", plus they have vested interests.

 

The fact remains that we here seem to be financing in excess of double the support staff than the national median, yet when cuts are being sought there's no mention of reviewing the payroll, only in charging end users more. Does that not strike you as somewhat odd?

 

I'm not necessarily advocating sacking anyone, or not yet at least. I'm asking for proof that all of those support staff are really justified and providing value for money.

[peeriebryan]

Can we please try to keep this thread on topic - there's already an active thread on the Blueprint for Education and school funding cuts that the last few posts would be more at home in - http://www.shetlink.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6746

[Longdog]

The fact remains that we here seem to be financing in excess of double the support staff than the national median, yet when cuts are being sought there's no mention of reviewing the payroll, only in charging end users more. Does that not strike you as somewhat odd?

 

.

 

I think you assume that teachers 'sooth' are coping well and not having issues with the level of support they have. Most I know struggle, nationally there are more and more who leave teaching either by early retirement, stress, or not long after qualifying due to the crazy pressures both in the classroom, assessments, paper work and work that has to be done at home and in holidays.

 

It's Shetland that has more realistic levels for children to get the most out of their education and have teachers who are in a position to support them properly.

 

My last class 'sooth' was 30 kids of 7 year olds, 7 who were SEN and 2 who were G&T, oh... and one with English as and additional language. So I have 30% of my class that need additional planning and in class support, on top of the normal planning and differentiation you need for a un-streamed class.

 

Did I need additional classroom help, you bet. I had one part-time TA and had to use my luch and breaks to try to give extra support to kids who needed it, as did we all. Did I feel I was failing those kids, you bet, it was mission impossible.

 

As I said, don't assume that teachers in Shetland have it easy and there's dead weight, they're just supported as others should for both the well fair of the kids and themselves. No good teacher would have TA's lolly gagging around when there's kids to help...

[peeriebryan]

The document which proposes charging for instrumental tuition is here - http://www.shetland.gov.uk/coins/submissiondocuments.asp?submissionid=10206 - there is only one sentence which makes reference to the charges

6.2.8.2 - Introduce charges of £160 per annum for Instrumental Lessons, based on a middling charge compared with other councils, (yielding an extra £130,000)

The above statement suggests 812.5 students to produce the resultant 'yield' of £130,000. This is already the approximate number of students who get instrumental tuition, but it seems inevitable that charging will reduce student numbers, and if so the yield will be much lower than stated

[bug]

But.... surely...... there's a Pot of Gold????

 

Oops - maybe this should be in the "New CE" thread?

 

..........anyway it was nearly lunchtime, on a fine day in Se.........

 

http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/ab205/bugshet/1207PotofGold.jpg

[paulb]

so a cut that just results in loss of music training.

meals on wheels charges to increase.

other services cut.

 

why if were short don't we just raise the council tax a bit. yes that means we annoy the snp but it is the only way to fund services.

 

how about no major capital spending programs for the next few years.

 

a root and branch review of all costs and expenses. privatise services or as in England merge departments with others like council tax claims are now processed by one council for others.

 

give the council housing over to the housing association. they can then get loans and other help.

 

 

 

who know what else can be done. how about looking again at the sullom tonnage charge. they are making money out of it why are we not. how about a gas charge for the total plant.