Independence for Shetland!

[Brian]

In fact, is there one?

[frunco1]

In fact, is there one?

 

After all, we wouldn't want it start without us!

[derick]

Channel Isles - mmm. Jersey precisely shaas whit wey a place can be owre peerie ta be democratic. Or safe fur its citizens. Haut de la Garenne, my dears?

 

aye aye dessy boy an of course nae bairn has ever been abused in utopian scotia/alba/caladonia.

if I could be arsed I would get you loads of examples of child abuse and murder in that lovely nungawump an this according to your reasoning would justify scotland never being indipendant.

get a grip o desel boy

 

Du's deliberately missin da point yet ageen so I'll spell it oot in short wirds.

da problem wi Jersey is no da alleged crime - da problem is at der too peeria a pool a fok ta draw senior officials an elected representatives fae. 'I'm My Own Grandpa' is a fently amusin song, but it's nae wey ta run a democracy.

 

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article3511934.ece

 

"Asked whether there had been pressure to limit the scope of his investigation, Harper, who is from Northern Ireland and has served in Jersey for almost six years, said: “There has been stacks of it. Mainly from ex-cops, corrupt cops who have got friends in among senior politicians on the island"

[derick]

How is the campaign for an independent Shetland, by the way?

 

Waitin fur MI6 ta supply campaign funding?

 

bzzt scene cuts ta CfIS HQ, Bugerigirt, Oot da Wastside somewhaur naebody Aest a Weisdal brig allooed,

 

Magnie a Biugerigirt twiddles da knob wheeoooob aha tuned in:

'IS campane caalling heer, overr'

 

MI6 HQ - Clive Ponsonby-Nagersworth-Smythe arises fae his secretary an picks up ta set: 'Helloo Owwld Boyy, thah cesh yooah esked foah is orne its wahy doncha worry owd chep'

 

MaB 'Weil tha's braal...I mean verry guid...eh gooood. Wi''ll do wi-oor er our bit sir, be sshure o..of thet. Hings up.

 

MaB ta drouthy cronies. Boys, we'll shaa yun Scotchman whit fur. Weel dat's half past eyt - gie du me yun rid tin. Better mak it tree, I feel a trist comin on.

 

CP-N-S ta secretary. 'Well dahling, theyah come in useafa but God what a binch of of rurah boobies! Which reminds me: come hea dahling!"

[sheepshagger]

you're very keen to portray anyone that wants an indipendant Shetland as wishing to remain with the English dessy. smeer being the preffered weapon of those that can't justify their own ideals.

 

but then again if you are the example, remaining with the guffs would be prefferable to staying with the jocks(traps)

[Ghostrider]

In fact, is there one?

 

Probably not. There's a decided lack of potential Presidential or Prime Ministerial material showing it's head above the parapet.

 

I'm all for dumping the Scotties, but there's precious little use in going for full independence when there's nobody to take the wheel of the ship.

[derick]

you're very keen to portray anyone that wants an indipendant Shetland as wishing to remain with the English dessy. smeer being the preffered weapon of those that can't justify their own ideals.

 

[ignorant abuse deleted]

 

Yis, becis dat is da reality.

 

mmm. 'smeer' soonds laek some kind a Norski margarine.

 

I can aisy justify my ideals:

E.g. I wid reydir see nort sea oil taxation used ta keep fuel prices doon here (so I could win ta me wark wi-oot takkin oot anidder mortgage), reydir as peyin fur unprovoked wars an big black cars in London.

[derick]

In fact, is there one?

 

Probably not. There's a decided lack of potential Presidential or Prime Ministerial material showing it's head above the parapet.

 

I'm all for dumping the Scotties, but there's precious little use in going for full independence when there's nobody to take the wheel of the ship.

 

mmm. wance da full scale genetic testing on day 1 o Shetlan Independence is complete, an a racially impure 'incomers' at arrived afoore 900AD but eftir 1400AD is deported - dey'll be nae voters, niver mind a President! Human beings is aa incomers, except in Kenya.

 

! wid tak da view dat Shetlan is pairt a Scotland, hence Shelties actually is Scotties, an it wid be kinda hard ta dump wirsels!

[Ghostrider]

mmm. wance da full scale genetic testing on day 1 o Shetlan Independence is complete, an a racially impure 'incomers' at arrived afoore 900AD but eftir 1400AD is deported - dey'll be nae voters, niver mind a President! Human beings is aa incomers, except in Kenya.

 

! wid tak da view dat Shetlan is pairt a Scotland, hence Shelties actually is Scotties, an it wid be kinda hard ta dump wirsels!

 

Whit ails dee we dem it wis heer afore 900 ur cam eftir 1400, shurlee da langer sumeen is been da bettir dir richt ta hae a claim, an if fok cam an settelt a latir yeers an made hit hame, why no? If dy idee a independence onlee can cum wi sum kinda unattainible utopian fashist soopir-race, den hits a mercy du's no fur independence.

 

Shetlin is mebbe a peece a Skotlin upo paepir, bit dir nae Gaelic, tartin an bagpipes heer, an niddir hae we ocht a coamin wi a Doric wi is hens an loons an bogies idder. Dir certainlee Scottie blud a Shetlin, bit dir a lok a blud fae idder wyes tuh dat du'll no fin a maist Scotties. Da nort a Inglin haes is muckle Scottie blud a dem is maist Shetlin fok haes, hit dusna mak dem Scotties ur pairt a Skotlin, whit wye man hit mak wis a pairt?

[Njugle]

Not to put words in someen else's mouth GR, derick has stated on here before that he views shetlanders as 'fake vikings' which i think explains his view on the dates, ie those who were here before the vikings wouldn't count, if we are all so wrapped up in believing ourselves 'norsemen'.

 

To stick my oar in further, prior to the 17th century control of Shetland as a part of any nation would have been largely titular as communications would have been minimal and and time delayed and devolved power in the form of local law-givers of some description would have been the main guidance in the community. Shetland prior to the 17th century would have been a mish-mash of scandinavian and scottish cultures with a healthy dose of self evolved culture due to it's geographical location, really no more a part of scandinavia than scotland. More a stepping stone in between in an age where local meant local and transient folks were considered in isolation. Some would have welcomed them and some would have killed them and taken their wares.....more the former of course.

It is on record that prior to Stewart rule the Sinclair Earls were left the task of rule over Shetland as the Crown, who now 'possessed' Shetland, was too far removed to have a hope. The same would have applied to Norwegian rule and even more so in earlier times. But you cannot compare then to now...

 

For the record, this is neither an argument for or against further devolved power. I neither understand Brian's scorn of the idea or fully embrace it myself. From recent press releases on the subject of oil funds it would seem as if the SNP are drooling over the prospect of emulating what Shetland achieved with oil revenue post 1974. To me this makes them leaders of dubious motive, whereby 'Scotland' as a whole may take further priority over Shetland's interests. This would tend toward the view that London makes for a more manageable ally than Edinburgh, perhaps. Though it is unlikely that either really have an interest in what actually goes on here any more than we scrutinise London's or Edinburgh's local politics. It's all about balance sheets really, as there are insufficient voters here for them to really care.

[Ghostrider]

^^ A fair summary. I don't subscribe to the whole Viking thing, certainly it was a period in history which left it's mark, and matters, but it is just one factor in a far bigger picture There's a lot of Scandinavian influence in what Shetland is, but theres also as much if not more Scottish influence, and all of it well influenced by local evolution. We don't fit in either a Scottish camp or a Scandinavian one, we're a hybrid mix of both with a lot of local tinkering thrown in.

 

I'm far from convinced independence is the way to go, I doubt Shetland is of sufficent size to make it viable, and in any case there seems a clear lack of local political will, and especially local political talent to try and make it work. If Shetland and Orkney were to go for joint independence, and especially if Faroe were to join in and make it a three member independent isles group. I might be swayed that independence is the way to go, but that's a non-starter as Shetland's relationship with either, or the others with each other is so little as make it unworkable.

 

I don't think your average Joe Public Scot has anything much against us, or wishes us any ill, any more than your average Joe Public Englander does. From personal experience both are afflicted by the same problem insofar as only a small minority know we exist and where we are, and only a small minority of that minority knows anything about us.

 

The issue arises when you consider the attitudes in the corridors of power. Neither Scotland nor England have ever done us much good throughout history, but England doesn't have a track record of doing us harm like Scotland does. Over the centuries Scotland has sent us much that has done harm, been very good at ignoring us in times of need, and of only acknowledging our existance when we had something they wanted, for which they'd only offer glass beads for Manhattan. I've seen nothing come out of the current incarnation of the Scottish corridors of power to suggest anything has changed in the last 500 years.

 

As long as the worst excesses of Scottish power grabbing aspirations are tempered by Westminster, as they have for the last 125 years or so, I can just about live with the status quo as the best of a bad bunch, but if Scotland goes for independence a whole other ball game comes in to play. I'm not saying choosing to stay aligned with England will do us any favours, or stop the English taking their pound of flesh out of us, in fact it's very likely to remain much as it is just now. The point is, the English come to the table as the devil we know, and with a track record that while nothing to boast over, has only a limited amount to be critical of either. Scotland on the other hand comes to the table with a track record of how they've viewed us and treated us over many centuries that is difficult to locate a positive in, and contains much they should be ashamed of. Why on earth would we consider aligning ourselves with a nation who's rulers were content to kick us round like a stray dog and feed us the ocasional stale scrap for as many centuries as they could get away with, and give all appearances that they'd continue where they left off if given the chance?

[derick]

Not to put words in someen else's mouth GR, derick has stated on here before that he views shetlanders as 'fake vikings'

nah - du is actually pittin wirds i me mooth - I am a Sheltie so dat wid mean considerin mesel a fake viking! It's ignorant fok at insists at Shetlan is 'pure' norse dat I tink is fake vikings.

 

I am said elsewhaur at fok at focuses on da 'Scandinavian' pairt o Shetlan heritage tae ta complete exclusion oda 'Scottish' pairt is doin so, conciously or unconciously, PRECISELY becis dat is da wan an ony time in history whin Shetlan wisna associated politically wi mainlaund Scotland. Da ony, short, time in 5,000 years o culture at dat wis da case!

 

Fordermair, dis idea - at Shetlan is 'pure' (whit a vile wird!) norse wis clearly manufactured/fabricated bi Shetlan unionists ida latter half oda 19th Century as pairt oda Tory backlash against Liberal Hom Rule. An da purveyors o 'Rough Island Stories' wis da lairds and der class, an twartree deluded 'internationalist' pre-socialists. Der a politics PhD ta be hed in dis subject fur some student at wants ta dig ida private pippers o da Sheltan ruling class!.

 

Very much analagous ta whit Unionists did in Ireland at da sam time.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Institution#Revival

"By the later 19th century, the [Orange] Order was in decline. However, its fortunes were revived by the spread of Protestant opposition to Irish nationalist mobilisation in the Irish Land League and then around the question of Home Rule. The Order was heavily involved in opposition to Gladstone's first Irish Home Rule Bill 1886"

 

Up Helly Aa is absolutely steepit in Great Briteesh Empire Loyalism - it could hardly be idder, gien da Empire wis at its height whin it wis foondit. I tink da 'freedom' ida UH Song (written in posh english I might add) is 'freedom' fae Liberal Home rule. Laund a Hope an glory wi a fake vikeeng hat on. (aside - a female cousin o mine says Up Helly Aa is 'joost a lok a drunk rubbery owld men tryin ta get aff wi da young lasses!' Shurly No!)

 

Shetland prior to the 17th century would have been a mish-mash of scandinavian and scottish cultures with a healthy dose of self evolved culture...The same would have applied to Norwegian rule and even more so in earlier times.

 

Similar mish mash in Caithness, Skye, Mull etc.

"When son min guid to Kadanes" (Cataibh-ness - da ness whaur da Pictish Catts bed;

Innse Cataibh = Cattland = Hjaltland = Zetland = Shetland

Insse Cataibh - 'islands of the Catts'

 

From recent press releases on the subject of oil funds it would seem as if the SNP are drooling over the prospect of emulating what Shetland achieved with oil revenue post 1974. To me this makes them leaders of dubious motive, whereby 'Scotland' as a whole may take further priority over Shetland's interests. This would tend toward the view that London makes for a more manageable ally than Edinburgh, perhaps.

 

Weill I dunna agree - seein Shetlan as a streytfoarward pairt o Scotland means we see da crofting connection wi da mainlaund crofting areas, da fysheen connection wi da aest coast, da institutional connections at geng awa back - hoo mony fok fae Shetlan geed ta Scots Universities?, or is members o Scottish professional bodies?

 

London is reduced ta tryin on dis 'Crown Dependency' nonsense - an da half o da letter writers tae da Telegraph even canna even spell 'Shettland' right, or keen da differnce atween Sheltand and Shetlands !

[derick]

 

 

Neither Scotland nor England have ever done us much good throughout history, but England doesn't have a track record of doing us harm like Scotland does. Over the centuries Scotland has sent us much that has done harm, been very good at ignoring us in times of need

 

Da Royal Navy's Press Gang? Thanks England!

Da Napier Commission, an da Truck Commission? Thanks Scotland!

compare and contrast.

 

Scotland on the other hand comes to the table with a track record of how they've viewed us and treated us over many centuries that is difficult to locate a positive in, and contains much they should be ashamed of. Why on earth would we consider aligning ourselves with a nation who's rulers were content to kick us round like a stray dog and feed us the ocasional stale scrap for as many centuries as they could get away with, and give all appearances that they'd continue where they left off if given the chance?

 

Dat might be da case IF, and ony if, you believe da 'Rough Island Stories' mickey moose version o history. I dunna.

 

And IF, an ony if you tink Sheltan is no a pairt o Scotland. I dunna.

 

Da future is whit coonts, no wrongs real or imagined fae da past.

 

Resolution No 3 as passed bi SNP National Council, Perth, Setterday 07 June 2008.

"Council recognises that Scotland is a Nordic country, and has much to contribute to and learn from formal links with our fellow Nordic neighbours, recognises that the West Nordic Council comprising Iceland, the Faeroe Islands and Greenland as well as the Nordic Council are working on issues of crucial relevance to Scotland like energy policy, transport policy, fisheries policy and others, and calls on the SNP government to explore formal links with both organisations'

 

Note: Formal Links.

 

cheers

[Ghostrider]

Scotland on the other hand comes to the table with a track record of how they've viewed us and treated us over many centuries that is difficult to locate a positive in, and contains much they should be ashamed of. Why on earth would we consider aligning ourselves with a nation who's rulers were content to kick us round like a stray dog and feed us the ocasional stale scrap for as many centuries as they could get away with, and give all appearances that they'd continue where they left off if given the chance?

 

Dat might be da case IF, and ony if, you believe da 'Rough Island Stories' mickey moose version o history. I dunna.

 

And IF, an ony if you tink Sheltan is no a pairt o Scotland. I dunna.

 

Da future is whit coonts, no wrongs real or imagined fae da past.

 

Nivvir herd a 'Rough Island Stories'.

 

Deevilish lairds, crookit minnistirs an a slew a fugitive chancers, maistly mineir Scottie nobeelity ur dir illigitimate youngstirs, usin an abusin da place an da fok whitivvir wye dey tocht fit, fur 400 odd yeer, an nivvir a Scottie it bed hame sed hit hed a faut.

 

Du can mebbe furgee and furyat sic laek efter a sentry, but dats no me. Da sam lies in wi dem yit, hits juist anunder toom, fowir giniraesins dusna breed im oot.

 

Dem it dunna git laer fae histiry ir set ta repaet hit!

[derick]

Nivvir herd a 'Rough Island Stories'.

 

Rough Island Story is a very dodgy 'history' o Onst. It took its title fae a line in a poem by Alfred Lord Tennyson - da ultmate British Empire writer (an dat reydir tells you whaur da author o Rough Island Story wis comin fae politeecally!) I wis usin it as shorthaund fur da haile genre o 'hardy Shetlanders oppressed bi cruel Scots' mickey moose schuil a history

 

Deevilish lairds, crookit minnistirs an a slew a fugitive chancers, maistly mineir Scottie nobeelity ur dir illigitimate youngstirs, usin an abusin da place an da fok whitivvir wye dey tocht fit, fur 400 odd yeer, an nivvir a Scottie it bed hame sed hit hed a faut.

 

Yea - weil dat wid a been hellish - if ony o't it wis true! Dunna forget ivry government on da fece oda aert at dat time did reydir traet ordnar fok laek dirt.

 

Du can mebbe furgee and furyat sic laek efter a sentry, but dats no me. Da sam lies in wi dem yit, hits juist anunder toom, fowir giniraesins dusna breed im oot.

Gettin brawly near blindd prejudice dere I doot.

 

Dem it dunna git laer fae histiry ir set ta repaet hit!

 

Absolutely agree - bit it haes ta be accurate history, no 19th century politeecal propaganda fae da Lairdy classes!

Onywey, owre fine a day fur dis - I'm awa ta maw me girse.

 

cheers