Independence for Shetland!

[deardron]

This discussion follows a wrong direction when someone makes a statement "Scandinavia is one and Shetland is another". What is known as "Scandinavia" or "Nordic countries" (I won't go into discussion about what's the difference between these, f.ex. are Finland and Iceland parts of Scandinavia or not, arguing on this subject is always a waste of time) is not a unified mass. The viking heritage is in some way NOT a natural part of the culture of the Nordic countries, because it was almost completely abandoned when Christianity was established in all of them. Then, it started being resurrected at some extent during the Renaissance age and especially the national romantism of the XIX century, not free of contemporary fantasies, filling up the multiple gaps where the old pre-Christian knowledge had been lost without a trace. And nowadays all this vikings stuff is pretty much an entertainment for tourists and local boozers rather than something going from the marrow.

 

On the other hand, it's wrong to think that all Scandinavians are quite the same thing. It's a planet in itself. Swedes are different to Norwegians and Danes to Faroemen. Iceland is no less specific, because it long was isolated, but maintained its language and literature which let them develop a unique cultural environment. So each Scandinavian/Nordic country has a right to be regarded as an entity on its own, especially the island lands. There's no "archetypal" Scandinavian country whatsoever.

 

Shetland and Orkney can be regarded as peripheral parts of Scandinavia/Nordic along with Greenland and Finland - there's a strong Scandinavian element, but the environment is non-Scandinavian. Whether to call it Scandinavian or not, is a matter of definition and personal preference.

[derick]

Dagfinn

 

Sorry, I thought I had made my point as clear as I could.

 

1 That it just as ridiculous for Ghostrider and Sheepshagger to blame the Scots 'race' today for what certain people may (or may not?) have done in the distant past, as it would be for the British today to feel personal guilt about the British Empire of the past. I disapprove equally of 'viking' bad behaviour an british empire misbehavour!!

 

2 What this has to do with the current political situation in Shetland is that the, completely false and incorrect, view that Shetland is somehow not fully part of Scotland is used by British Unionists (both in London and in Shetland) as a 'divide and rule' ploy. This is directly analagous to aspects of Irish history.

 

3 That the 'viking' identity in Shetland is ghastly, fake, one-dimensional, near-racist and was most likely manufactured by the Shetland ruling clases in the 19th century in order to undermine Liberal Home Rule policies

 

 

Njuggle

 

 

1 'a lot of blood is shared'?? ????????? A bit Mein Kampf, that?

 

2 I have nothing against the Lerwick Up Helly at all. A great carry on. If the Lerwick folk want to cross-dress, get drunk and get off with other people's spouses, that's up to them and no doubt adda a little joy to a long dark winter. The nihilistic drinking style is more Scottish than Scandinavian, so suppose I should approve.

 

3 can't stand tartan tat. YUK! Or fake vikeeng tat fur dat maitter!!

 

cheers

[sheepshagger]

surely murderous and theivin

 

surely that is fake cartoon christian version of history dessy boy.

 

the people of Scandanavia were attacked by the armies of the holy roman empire who marched under the banner of the cross, and it was this that caused a displacement of peoples throughout the region that set of the viking expansion. They had been settling and trading peacefully with Shetland Orkney Faroe Scotland Ireland and England for years prior to this. So when some tosser attacks your home and family tells you to kneel before the cross or die then I reckon most right and fair minded folks would kick the living turd out of any one they came accross bearing the same cross ie the monestaries. This is the same christian church that kept folks poor and uneducated to make them easier to control, and the same christian church that wrote the history books about the vikings.

 

you cherry pick your bits from history to suit your own beliefs dessy boy just like thye SNP taught you.

there's a good boy don't you realise that once they have their way you'll be put back in your box.

[Ghostrider]

That it just as ridiculous for Ghostrider and Sheepshagger to blame the Scots 'race' today for what certain people may (or may not?) have done in the distant past, as it would be for the British today to feel personal guilt about the British Empire of the past.

 

I wiss du wid whyte takkin whit I sae an pittin a snud athin im ta serf de ain ends. Im sed eence afore onywye dat hit haes not wan blisset thing ta duh we blem.

 

Fur da sake a klaritee, eence mair, hit his ivvreething ta duh wi da view da Skottesh Neshin haes a wis is bein a pairt o ir, an da attituid a Scottie taks on whin he's geen poor ower wis. Scotties hed da maist pairt a fower hunder yeer loardin it ower wis, an hit tuk da Ingleesh teetin ower dir shudder aw da time ta mak dem wirk sens. Dir geen nae appearance idda hunder odd syn syne dat dey tink ony bettir a wis noo is dey did den, ur wid traet wis ony bettir noo is dey did den. Hit's caad "haein form", dir "peddigree", dir "reputeeshin".

 

Fu aft ir we gyaan ta stik wir haund idda mooth o a bitin dog an git im nippit, afore we laern ta it laest hing aff util da beggar whytes snarlin an barkin.

[Njugle]

Can i just make a point GR that it is scottish rule you are referring to and not specifically ' all the people of Scotland' There is a marked distinction there that could be seen as offensive to those not in government. Du keens.

[Ghostrider]

An a 'Scottie' is ey a 'Scottie'???

Util sic a time cums is dey shaw dir shengid dir wyes, yeaya. An Im been awarr a nae shenge wi dem yit.

I genuinely dunna keen whit ta say ta someen at seems ta be agreein wi racial purity theories, except it joost confirms ta me a 'Shetland Nationalism' is ethnic, exclusive an a peerie bit right-wing. Weill actually a big bit right wing.

 

Yeaya, if I hae onny poleetikil stance avaa, he's upoa da richt wing, dey'll be nae banes med aboot dat een. Left wing is fine upoa paeppir, bit faws asindry whin human natir wins among im, bit dats anidder debait.

 

I dunna see Neshinilism is ethnic, bit he's ixkloosiv aw richt. Whaivvir dey ir, dey hae ta hae da best intirists idda Neshin it hert, an duh richt be baith da fok in da plais. Asset strippers comin an gyaan be da sooth mooth can juist bide hame.

 

Da Scotties upoa da tidder haund wir staelin and bein a propir seekinin ta dem aw daily dae fur hunders a yeers.

Dat is a cartoon version o history (an culture), an I tink it's based on a victorian unionist backlash against Liberal Hom Rule. Loardsake, even da neem a Shetlan itsel is half Pictish half Norse/Germanic!

 

E.g Pairt oda cartoon history is at da merchants wis 'haund in glove' wi da lairds - yit whin someen fur wance actually lookit at evidence (reydir as a whole lok a inherited gossip!) da reality wis entirely different. Robert a Setter geed ta da budder o gagglin troo Jeemie Williamson o Gardies old pippirs ie. actual evidence - an whit did he fin? - dat Williamson kerried half a Yell financially on his back, an bankrupted hissel finally fur his trouble. Real history: no cartoon history.

Johnson, R. L. (1979) A Shetland Country Merchant : being an account of the life and times of James Williamson of Mid Yell 1800-1872.

 

Na, laeve du da shop men oota dis, dir wisna mony a dem Scotties be da 19th sentry, aboot wir wye onywye. Dir nae doot wis a twartree teivin deevils among da hame growin eens tuh, bit fur da maist pairt dey did no sae very ill.

 

Cartoons can be left hame tuh, an sae can auld Victoria, dir mair is enoych reel histree a fu "sons a Skotlin" wrocht streechin bak ta afore auld Victoria's eryse wis grit enoych ta uise a shanty ta duh.

 

Whit aboot da auld Scottie laird dat whin da fok wir fantin wi waunt, an da mael wis sent and da mael rods med, it tuk hit upoa imsell ta ordir ivvery able boadied man, wife an bairn furt aw dae ivvree dae aw winter ta mak dis rods fae dae-licht ta daeset, da men wharryin stane, an da weemin an bairns spreddin im. Den sent is man ermid wi a hors whup ta wauk bak an fore da line a weemin wirkin, an onyeen it he tocht wisna wirkin hard enoych, ta gie ir da lent oh da whup. Den, whin aw wis sed in dun, da mael wis anunder lok an kee athin een a da lairds ain huisis, we een oh is men staundin ermid gaird upoa da door, an eftir aw dir wark he onlee gae ta ivvree een da very laest he tocht he cud git awa we, keepin da lion's shair ta imsell, but mebbe if sumeen hed a twartree pennies ta gie im, dey got a sint mair.

 

Whit aboot da auld Scottie laird, an auld man athin puir helt, a bedril fur whiles a time, it got is ee upoa a young lass athin ir teens it wis a servant ta da huis, an lae at ir ta spend ir nichts athin is bed wi im. An whin sho widna duh it, e telld ir he wid turn hir fok oota da huis an toon dey wir athin upoa im if sho widna, bit sho stil widna duh hit, so e pat da fok aff idda laund.

 

Whit aboot anidder een, it kent fine weel da fok it wir is tenants cudna reed, an uised dat igyenst dem. Idda first place he wis med da fok dattn faerd fur im dey wir faerd no ta duh is biddin, sae is whin he pat is man ta dem wi a paper, an is man telld da fok it da laird wid laek hit if dey wid aw pit dir mark upoa dis paepir, da maist a dem wir faerd no ta duh is biddin. An da twartree kinda mair face-first eens dat aksid whit wis rittin upoa dis paepir, wir telld be da laird's man it he wis anunder ordirs no ta reed it tae dem, dey wir ta reed it fur demsells an mak dir ain minds up is ta whiddir dey wir waun ta sign im ur no.

 

Enoych a dem wis faerd enyoch no ta duh da whit da laird wantit dem ta duh, it da majoritee idda heds idda huisis idda place did sign, sae idda wirdin idda paepir dat ment aw boddie idda place wis igreeible. Whit da puir fok nivvir kent wis it be da majoritee pittin dir mark upoa hit, dey wir geen an signed aw boddie idda place aff idda laund an oota dir husis.

 

I cud geen on aw nicht an a while idda morn....

 

 

Da Scottie is hed far mair is plenty a me an mine, limmie heer an see whit dir gyaan ta duh fur me fur a sheinge afore I tink ta side wi dem redder is da Ingleesh.

A National Health Service, funded fae general taxation, free at da point o need? Cooncil tax increase o Nil % fur tree year?

 

Dunna du start me upoa da NHS an dir serveecis....

 

Whit's dy point tho. Da NHS, gud, ill or sumwye idda middle is been fae '47, an is a Breetish neshinil thing, whit kredit can Skotlin tak fur dat? Nae Cooncil Tax gyaan up is fine an weel, bit an increes a cooncil spend a da sam yeers is comin fae Edinburry, hits nae nae percent increase, dats just dis spin, dir mebbe a staur bettir lid been pittin upoa fu muckle da increase be yeer is, bit dir still an increase, an weer still peyin im, he's juist bein sent ta Edinburry upoa is rod ta da Hillhed insted a gyaan streight.

[Ghostrider]

Can i just make a point GR that it is scottish rule you are referring to and not specifically ' all the people of Scotland' There is a marked distinction there that could be seen as offensive to those not in government. Du keens.

 

I ken. As I said before....

 

I don't think your average Joe Public Scot has anything much against us, or wishes us any ill, any more than your average Joe Public Englander does. From personal experience both are afflicted by the same problem insofar as only a small minority know we exist and where we are, and only a small minority of that minority knows anything about us.

 

The issue arises when you consider the attitudes in the corridors of power. Neither Scotland nor England have ever done us much good throughout history, but England doesn't have a track record of doing us harm like Scotland does. Over the centuries Scotland has sent us much that has done harm, been very good at ignoring us in times of need, and of only acknowledging our existance when we had something they wanted, for which they'd only offer glass beads for Manhattan. I've seen nothing come out of the current incarnation of the Scottish corridors of power to suggest anything has changed in the last 500 years.

 

I have nothing against the people of Scotland, they're the same as people everywhere. The problem exists only in the attitudes which seem to thrive in the corridors of Scottish political power and with the people who inhabit them, and in the attitudes of the very few who for whatever reason have direct and ultimate power over us in any sphere. In a nutshell, a Scot in a position of ultimate control over Shetland affairs, or the affairs of Shetlanders is always very bad news for Shetland and Shetlanders from where I'm sitting. The remainder of the people of Scotland who get on with doing there own thing, and let Shetland and Shetlanders get on with their own thing, I find to be nice enough and agreeable people to live and work side by side with.

[Njugle]

Thanks awfully oald chep.

 

It could easy be mis-read if someen wis tae stumble apo dis debate athoot readin aa dats geen afore and tak issue we yun post afore da een i made.

 

 

In a moment of clarity, whislt contemplating Shetland's place as a hub in the northern ocean, it suddenly struck me - the moment of clarity that is, not the ocean - that whilst i am greatly enjoy the historical argie-bargie about bad scottish rulers and temporary allegiance to Norway it stuck me that neither issue is really in any ways aimed at, or against, greater autonomy within Shetland, it is perhaps symptomatic of the problem with the people of Shetland that we focus on what has been done and not what could be done. Many years have passed since Shetland really made a political impact upon it's owners or the world in general. Dagfinn's comments have pre-occupied me all afternoon in that we are no longer on the Faroese political radar. So what? One might ask, but the point may be that it is not so long ago that Shetland appeared to be forging ahead doing it's own thing with it's investments and connections and now we seem to lie becalmed in the water. There are still ample opportunities for Shetland to make an impact in international terms. It is possible to excel within the boundaries of the UK given the correct leadership and confidence. It has been done before.

 

(chrikes, i just started and it all spilled oot)

[derick]

There are still ample opportunities for Shetland to make an impact in international terms. It is possible to excel within the boundaries of the UK given the correct leadership and confidence. It has been done before.

 

wid du no do yun winkin thing!

 

Da UK will cease ta exist shortly. Da British Isles (includin Eire) will continue ida sam wey as Scandinavia does. Nae graet deal.

 

Ghostrider - is du sure ony o yun stuff actually happened?

 

Deardron - fair enoch aboot Danish oil. Doesna mean Scotland widna do joost fine wi-oot Shetlan (except it wid brak my hert)

 

cheer boys.

[Ghostrider]

Ghostrider - is du sure ony o yun stuff actually happened?

 

Names, addresses and dates available on request.

[sheepshagger]

Dessy boy next time your kissing king salmond ass ask him about a rally in pitlochry about twenty years ago where he stated quite categorically that Orkney and Shetland were free to go their own way that the SNP would support this position 100% but when asked what about the oil and fishing grounds that would be taken with them he stated "that is scotish oil and scotish fishing grounds and they would remain with scotland forever".

 

If nothing that had gone before made me want to get the scotish monkey off our back then that statement surely did it for me.

 

I very much doubt that he'll admit his two faced self serving attitude but I and many others were there to witness it, and I'm glad to say the SNP party worker that took me to this political rally quit working for the party right there and then, I'm also sorry to say that 2 years later he was back in the fold and supporting this bulls**t position.

[derick]

^^^

 

alas I hae nae taste fur ass kissin.

[derick]

ignorant abuse deleted:

ask him about a rally in pitlochry about twenty years ago where he stated quite categorically that Orkney and Shetland were free to go their own way that the SNP would support this position 100% but when asked what about the oil and fishing grounds that would be taken with them he stated "that is scotish oil and scotish fishing grounds and they would remain with scotland forever".

 

If you tak da view, as I do, at Shetlan is an integral pairt o Scotland - aa yun stuff abuine is simply a non-issue. I am not responsible fur whit AS said or didna say, nor do I agree wi ivry wird (shock horror!). If he spaeks dirt, he'll get nae support fae me.

 

'Shetlands Nationalism' is joost a foarm o 19th Century Briteesh Loyalism, at hisna muvved on politically whitsoivver fae dat time (Shetlan politics, as usual, a hunder a fifty year ahint da times!).

 

SNP fok on mainlaund Scotland might differ or treed waurily, bit I see nae raison whit wey we should humour your fake viking delusions.

 

Or whit wey we should pander ta Briteesh interests in dividin a rulin da simple natives (doun in London dey will joost be gaffin at you aa da while dey mak on dey care).

 

Njuggle is spot on, you're stuck ida rut o "focus on what has been done and not what could be done". Catch up.

[Fifi]

..it is perhaps symptomatic of the problem with the people of Shetland that we focus on what has been done and not what could be done.

Njuggle is spot on, you're stuck ida rut o "focus on what has been done and not what could be done". Catch up.

From an outside-but-lived-in-Shetland-for-years viewpoint, it can run the risk of looking like an outsize chip on the shoulder and, well, pleepsin! I'm a Shetland supporter and sympathise with Shetland's past, but surely at some stage you have to move on, be a bit more positive, get real and look to the future?

[sheepshagger]

I am looking to the future, a future that does not include Scotland. you claim a cartoon version of history makes me distrust Scots and I know that you've been fed a cartoon version of history thats makes you trust them.

Personal experiance of myself and my forebarers tells me not to trust the scotie and you'll never change that experiance or make me forget it.

Everytime we bring up our ancestory you quote mien kampf as if calling us nazi's makes your point of view more valid, I'm here to tell you it does not.

You claim a fake viking history for shetland but explain place names surnames and DNA evidence without reverting to your ussuall nazi slur.

wanting to be separated from Scotland does not mean I want to stay alinged with England but it is what you keep saying I want.

your arguments go around in circles and go nowhere