fraudrache Posted March 4, 2010 Report Share Posted March 4, 2010 Hello Folks, Some of you may already have heard from me but I´ll try to get some information by creating a new topic on this forum as well. I´m a german student in Scandinavian Studies and I´m writing a paper about Norn. But not the language back then but the influence Norn has on the people on Shetland and Orkney today. What presence has Norn today? Is Norn important to the people? What influence has it on their identities? Is there a market in tourism? Will tourists be informed about the scandinavian heritage? What do the people on Shetland and Orkney think about their own heritage - do they identify with Scandinavia or Scotland? Let me know what you think, I´d be grateful for your opninion! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Njugle Posted March 4, 2010 Report Share Posted March 4, 2010 Norn, as I have been informed on similar discussions before is dead in Shetland. The linguistic artefacts and legacy are still quite evident though. It is just the distinct Shetlnd language that is gone. The Shetland language, or dialect is very important to those brought up with it. It is a very strong influence on the Shetland identity, it is a source of pride to many and creates an affinity to our neighbours in the West Norden. Tourists are invariably informed about Shetland's scandinavian heritage, especially through the dialect, viking heritage, fire festivals and certain archaeological sites. Last one is tricky. Many people do associate very strongly with Scandinavia, but centuries of Scottish rule have purged much of the heritage. It is not so long since teachers and ministers ridiculed their audiences if they chose to speak in Shetland language. Children were scolded or even punished for doing so by them. Apparently. Have a look through some of the other threads in this section. There's a lot written about it all here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted March 4, 2010 Report Share Posted March 4, 2010 i would say in one generation its been decimated, in my childhood days we were fiercly proud to be Shetlanders firstly, we were proud of our forebarers culture and heritage. In this area surrounding the oil treminal and largely in Lerwick the children now are claiming to be scottish and talking with some grotesque sound like american crossed with welsh. I think now is a good time to do your study while theres something left to study Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulb Posted March 5, 2010 Report Share Posted March 5, 2010 or you could d what the Cornish did and start to use it again. if its good enough for Gaelic speakers then it should get the same support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fraudrache Posted March 5, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2010 Is the Shetland Dialect an official dialect? How different is it from English? Has it a written from? Would I, as a foreigner, understand it? Where do you feel drawn to? Scandinavia or Scotland? Or is it neither? Like most people in Northern Ireland feel neither Irish nor English. They answer questions about their nationality with: I´m from Northern Ireland.How is that with Shetlanders and Orknians? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fraudrache Posted March 5, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2010 What Norn phrases and fragments are still in use? I know there are some sayings left. And phrases just to be said in a certain situation. Are there words or phrases left you wouldn´t find a direct english translation for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulb Posted March 5, 2010 Report Share Posted March 5, 2010 Orkney Norn: Favor i ir i chimrie, / Helleur ir i nam thite, gilla cosdum thite cumma, / veya thine mota vara gort o yurn sinna gort i chimrie, / ga vus da on da dalight brow vora Firgive vus sinna vora / sin vee Firgive sindara mutha vus, lyv vus ye i tumtation, / min delivera vus fro olt ilt, Amen. Shetland Norn: Fy vor or er i Chimeri. / Halaght vara nam dit. La Konungdum din cumma. / La vill din vera guerde i vrildin sindaeri chimeri. / Gav vus dagh u dagloght brau. Forgive sindorwara / sin vi forgiva gem ao sinda gainst wus. Lia wus ikè o vera tempa, / but delivra wus fro adlu idlu. For do i ir Kongungdum, u puri, u glori, Amen Nordic countries Old (West) Norse: Faþer vár es ert à himenrÃki, verði nafn þitt hæilagt Til kome rÃke þitt, værði vili þin sva a iarðu sem à himnum. Gef oss à dag brauð vort dagligt Ok fyr gefþu oss synþer órar, sem vér fyr gefom þeim er viþ oss hafa misgert Leiðd oss eigi à freistni, heldr leys þv oss frá ollu illu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fraudrache Posted March 5, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2010 To Paulb: Thank you for those examples. I know this prayer has been written down long ago when Norn was still in use. But is this prayer still in use today in the church or at home? Or is it just another "source" for the now dead Norn? Is it common knowledge on Shetland and Orkney? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulb Posted March 5, 2010 Report Share Posted March 5, 2010 norn is dead but there is more dialect being supported. the schools teach lessons in it and the kids have been taught songs and received books. but thats what happens when the population mixs. look at the french and how upset they get over english words. even when half of them have a french origan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malachy Posted March 5, 2010 Report Share Posted March 5, 2010 I know there are some sayings left. And phrases just to be said in a certain situation. Are there words or phrases left you wouldn´t find a direct english translation for? If you're speaking about Norn, I'm not sure there are any sayings left in use. There are much better-informed people who write on these subjects here, but as far as I'm aware, Norn only exists in a small number of written fragments, transcribed long ago by non-speakers. I'm not aware of any Norn phrases or sayings in use still. There are words in the dialect that would have been Norn, or have derived from Norn, but the Shetland dialect as it's spoken today is better understood as a unique dialect of Scots, not as a watered down version of Norn. That's not to underestimate the Scandinavian influence, just to say that, from a linguistic perspective, Shetland dialect is connected to the Scots language. It didn't gradually evolve from Norn - Norn died, leaving only some words and grammatical forms behind. There are other threads on this forum that cover this subject ,and as I say there are better informed folk than me who write on them, so hopefully they will appear here soon and give you more comprehensive answers. (Edit: I'm happy to be corrected on any of this. I know there's some disagreement about elements of this subject, and I don't want to be attacked for my ignorance, but this is my understanding of it) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted March 5, 2010 Report Share Posted March 5, 2010 as far as i'm aware Norn was forcably stamped out by jock tyrants in the late 1700s and early 1800s to extinction, although the pronounciation of words still lingers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malachy Posted March 5, 2010 Report Share Posted March 5, 2010 as far as i'm aware Norn was forcably stamped out by jock tyrants in the late 1700s and early 1800s to extinction, although the pronounciation of words still lingersI think it was probably a more complex process than that, and would have begun much earler. Norn was effectively dead by 1800 I think. People had to learn Scots once it became the language of law (and of the church). It would have been a gradual erosion of Norn from that moment on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT Posted March 5, 2010 Report Share Posted March 5, 2010 Some links for you http://sh.shetlanddictionary.com/index.php?title=Main_Page http://www.shetlandheritageassociation.com/members/miscellaneous/shetland-forwirds.php http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TXrn0xoOcE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoGGrqWJFeo&feature=related http://www.shetland-heritage.co.uk/amenitytrust/placenames/placenames.html http://www.chooseshetland.com/shetland-introduction/whats-in-a-name/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fraudrache Posted March 5, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2010 Dear GT! Thank you for those links! They are very helpful! Does anyone know who did the videos on Hildina Kvæði and Unst Boat Song on YouTube? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT Posted March 5, 2010 Report Share Posted March 5, 2010 Does anyone know who did the videos on Hildina Kvæði and Unst Boat Song on YouTube? I think they were done by Huldumavur - there should be a link to their website from U-tube Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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