Importance of Norn Today

[fraudrache]

I think it was probably a more complex process than that, and would have begun much earler. Norn was effectively dead by 1800 I think. People had to learn Scots once it became the language of law (and of the church). It would have been a gradual erosion of Norn from that moment on.

 

Have you read the book of Geir Wiggen "Norns død, især skolens rolle"?

He points out that the dead of Norn can also be lead back to the lack of Norn in the schools. And as the children stopped speaking Norn it took only about one, maybe two, generations of the language to die.

[faraway]

as far as i'm aware Norn was forcably stamped out by jock tyrants in the late 1700s and early 1800s to extinction, although the pronounciation of words still lingers

 

Is this inflammatory, personally I don't like the word Jock from any bigot.

[fraudrache]

as far as i'm aware Norn was forcably stamped out by jock tyrants in the late 1700s and early 1800s to extinction, although the pronounciation of words still lingers

 

Is this inflammatory, personally I don't like the word Jock from any bigot.

 

Until two minuts ago I didn´t even know what "jock" actually means, but looks like it´s an insult to sottish people, so I agree with faraway.

Let´s keep it matter-of-factly, folks

[upmakk]

Many people do associate very strongly with Scandinavia, but centuries of Scottish rule have purged much of the heritage.

 

Though, arguably, World War II and particularly the Shetland Bus did much to renew the associations.

[fraudrache]

Many people do associate very strongly with Scandinavia, but centuries of Scottish rule have purged much of the heritage.

 

Though, arguably, World War II and particularly the Shetland Bus did much to renew the associations.

 

 

Why would that be? Do you think that people on Shetland were now more aware of their scandinavian heritage during World War II?

[upmakk]

People had to learn Scots once it became the language of law (and of the church). It would have been a gradual erosion of Norn from that moment on.

 

I'm not any more expert than Malachy, but the little I've gleaned from reading about Shetland's past suggests that it's likely to be even more complex than he suggests.

 

Shetland's location made (and still makes) it a gathering-point for seafaring traders and others from many countries. In order to carry on trade effectively, the locals would have needed smatterings of the visitors' many languages. I believe there's some evidence of that in present-day dialect, in the shape of words derived from Dutch, German, French and perhaps others.

 

But trade had been ongoing for centuries before Norn died out. It's plausible, therefore (though probably quite unproveable) that Norn similarly was influenced by other, non-Scandinavian languages - including Scots.

[Oddrun]

Well, the Shetlanders got in contact with a lot of Norwegians during WWII....

Here is some of them :

http://shetlopedia.com/The_Shetland_Bus

http://shetlopedia.com/The_Norwegian_MTB_Flotilla_in_Shetland

 

Edit : Opps, this was a comment to fraudrache's last post...

[upmakk]

Many people do associate very strongly with Scandinavia, but centuries of Scottish rule have purged much of the heritage.

 

Though, arguably, World War II and particularly the Shetland Bus did much to renew the associations.

 

 

Why would that be? Do you think that people on Shetland were now more aware of their scandinavian heritage during World War II?

 

Hard to answer that, because I'm not really sure how much contact there was between Shetland and Scandinavia in the years before 1940.

 

After the invasion of Norway, numbers of refugees fled to Shetland, and some stayed to man the Shetland Bus boats. The presence of these Norwegians in the community, and sympathy for Norway's predicament, may well have revived knowledge and interest in the country and strengthened Shetlanders' awareness of the cultural links. Certainly, a lot of relationships - friendships and marriages - were forged between individual Shetlanders and Norwegians at this time.

[Kavi Ugl]

i would say in one generation its been decimated, in my childhood days we were fiercly proud to be Shetlanders firstly, we were proud of our forebarers culture and heritage. In this area surrounding the oil treminal and largely in Lerwick the children now are claiming to be scottish and talking with some grotesque sound like american crossed with welsh. I think now is a good time to do your study while theres something left to study

 

Yes, spot on. I lament how much of our Shetland identity we've lost in the "oil generation". And that's just one generation. It could also be argued that as a community we've sold our soul for money/oil.

 

What hasn't helped(and isn't helping) is that we also have a very biased, pro-Scotland local media who are constantly trying to ram all things Scotland down our throats.

 

The racism against the Shetland tongue is far from dead and is not confined to history. My niece who started school in Lerwick just under two years ago informed me that "Ms X says we're not allowed to speak Shetland in school".....

 

Folk can take it or leave it but I am not a Scot and never will be. I am a Shetlander and my affinity is to Scandinavia.

[fraudrache]

Does anyone know if the subject of Norn in any way is tought at school in Orkney and Shetland?

[paulb]

i would say in one generation its been decimated, in my childhood days we were fiercly proud to be Shetlanders firstly, we were proud of our forebarers culture and heritage. In this area surrounding the oil treminal and largely in Lerwick the children now are claiming to be scottish and talking with some grotesque sound like american crossed with welsh. I think now is a good time to do your study while theres something left to study

 

Yes, spot on. I lament how much of our Shetland identity we've lost in the "oil generation". And that's just one generation. It could also be argued that as a community we've sold our soul for money/oil.

 

What hasn't helped(and isn't helping) is that we also have a very biased, pro-Scotland local media who are constantly trying to ram all things Scotland down our throats.

 

The racism against the Shetland tongue is far from dead and is not confinded to history. My niece who started school in Lerwick just under two years ago informed me that "Ms X says we're not allowed to speak Shetland in school".....

 

Folk can take it or leave it but I am not a Scot and never will be. I am a Shetlander and my affinity is to Scandinavia.

how dare she. would she tell a welsh or gaelic speaker not too.

[Kavi Ugl]

Does anyone know if the subject of Norn in any way is tought at school in Orkney and Shetland?

 

In one word no. There are "efforts" to "promote" the Shetland dialect but(in my opinion) it's being done by the wrong people and because of the anti-Shetland attitude that still prevails in the schools it's a waste of time.

 

This is another example that speaks volumes: Quite a few of the schools in Shetland now have flag poles but you will never, ever see the Shetland flag flying from them.....

 

The reason is that they don't want to promote Shetland.

[Malachy]

There are "efforts" to "promote" the Shetland dialect but(in my opinion) it's being done by the wrong people and because of the anti-Shetland attitude that still prevails in the schools it's a waste of time.

 

This is another example that speaks volumes: Quite a few of the schools in Shetland now have flag poles but you will never, ever see the Shetland flag flying from them.....

 

The reason is that they don't want to promote Shetland.

 

Well who on earth should be doing it other than people who are enthused and willing to give up their time to do so?

And I think your judgement of schools is uneccesarily negative also. I certainly never heard dialect speaking students in my year at school being asked not to speak it - we were also taught dialect poetry in English classes. And the Shetland flag flies over Fair Isle school fairly regularly in summer. I can't believe it's the only one in Shetland for one second. I think your doom and gloom attitude is unjustified.

[PJ of Hildisvik]

I believe the study and teaching of Norn in todays Shetland is very important. It is not something you can impose on todays youngsters, but i'am sure there are enough of them out there who would be interested.

Of course not only youngsters!

 

Is there a Norn society in Shetland?, i know of the Shetland dialect interest.

 

I'am originally from deepest "Darzet"(Dorset), and have a great interest in all things Saxon.

There is a fabulous group called, Da Engliscan Gesidas...(the English companions), enthusiasts of the Saxon era, language, wildlife etc etc.

Something in Shetland modelled on this for the Norn language and Shetland's (Hjaltland) scandinavien connections over hundreds of years would be great.

 

No point in getting bogged down with insulting each other over whose Islands these belong to..."cough"...Denmark/Norway

 

Christ, i still get wound up thinking about the bar steward Normans and Flemish mercenaries at Hastings

[Heimdal]

I could point you to this book

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Norn-Language-Orkney-Shetland/dp/1898852294

perhaps available in Lerwick ?