Importance of Norn Today

[joenorth]

While I believe that huge changes in the culture of our islands are linked to the decline of our dialect (we are a small population group in the middle of a globally-connected society rapidly dissolving into the bigger cultural mix) I think that there are other reasons why it will disappear.

 

All languages have regional variations. Most have a formally recognised standard, which, I guess, has been accepted as such after the passage of time (I know this is oversimplistic, but necessary for brevity of explanation). Our dialect need be seen no differently. To survive, it should be treated as a language, regardless of self-defeating arguments whether in linguistic/orthographic terms it is "actually" a dialect of Scots.

 

Yes, many dialect words no longer have relevance in today's cultural environments. Nevertheless, just as other languages mutate over time, our dialect could do the same (instead of just disappearing).To say that non-dialect speakers should "steer clear" of learning it lest they make a "fule" of themselves makes no sense. It could be learnt as well as any other language, if (and this is the crux of the issue) treated as a language. The notion that only born islanders could speak dialect is why the dialect will disappear. A language must be in constant use to remain alive. In today's Shetland, this would take conscious effort and a change in focus from preservation to promotion. However, I wonder if it's not already too late for this.

 

I reckon that he ideas found on Depooperit's website are some of the most sensible to be found in connection with the contemporary relevance of our tongue.

[mainlander]

But please, learn it before using it, as using it best they can without first mastering the required accent inevitably ends up in receiving a blank look as the listener has not had the first clue what was said. Or in some cases where the listener may not have such good levels of decorum and self control, simply be laughed at.

 

A bit like visiting France, then.

 

I would have thought that if someone moved to Shetland, it would be almost impossible for the occasional Shetland dialect word not to work its way into their speech, and probably more as the years went on - not on purpose, but due to the fact that they will be hearing the words every day, and absorb them unconsciously. I'm certainly not a linguist, but I thought that was how the human brain worked in terms of language?

[Guest Anonymous]

But please, learn it before using it, as using it best they can without first mastering the required accent inevitably ends up in receiving a blank look as the listener has not had the first clue what was said. Or in some cases where the listener may not have such good levels of decorum and self control, simply be laughed at.

 

A bit like visiting France, then.

 

I would have thought that if someone moved to Shetland, it would be almost impossible for the occasional Shetland dialect word not to work its way into their speech, and probably more as the years went on - not on purpose, but due to the fact that they will be hearing the words every day, and absorb them unconsciously. I'm certainly not a linguist, but I thought that was how the human brain worked in terms of language?

my friend , i am sorry to tell you that as a native Shetland speaking Shetlander, a whole day can pass and i wont hear another Shetland voice in my area

[Malachy]

as a native Shetland speaking Shetlander, a whole day can pass and i wont hear another Shetland voice in my area

Where on earth do you live? London? Perhaps you don't go out enough. This kind of complaint sound precisely like those Little Englanders who moan that there's no English people left in their area, only Poles and Lithuanians. The majority of people in Shetland were born in Shetland. That isn't going to change in the near future. But joenorth's comment is exactly right:

The notion that only born islanders could speak dialect is why the dialect will disappear. A language must be in constant use to remain alive. In today's Shetland, this would take conscious effort and a change in focus from preservation to promotion.

All this stuff about incomers not being able to speak dialect sounds, and making fools of themselves is hugely patronising. Imagine if we laughed at any foreigner speaking English and told them not to bother because they just sound stupid. That's exactly what happens in Shetland. Ghostrider's attitude expresses this:

It is usually nigh on impossible for an incomer to be able to speak Shetland in a manner which is easily understood by native speakers, and doesn't sound absurd, due to their natural accent clashing very badly with the accent shetland is supposed to have.

People will not get the sounds right to begin with, of course, but with practice, they will. (Rolling Rs is a matter of practice not physiology - Shetlanders' tongues are not formed differently) And the purpose of language is communication, not preservation of specific sounds. People from Whalsay sound different to people from Sandness or the Ness. People who've come here from Wales, England, Scotland or Zambia are going to sound different if they are allowed to try to speak dialect. Why is a bit of variety so frightening? Why is it so terrible for others to want to use Shetland words? It is, I think, a ridiculous attitude, and as long as it continues then the doom-mongering opinions some folk here are expressing will just be self-fulfilling. If dialect dies out (which I don't belive it will in my lifetime) it won't be incomers to blame, nor will it be 'mixed marriages', as Ghostrider amusingly put it.

[Guest Anonymous]

^^ trust us , we are no making it up

[joenorth]

Hmmm....It's easy to conflate the influence of "incomers" with non-useage of dialect. This really isn't the case. The reasons for the decline in use are many and varied. Broadly, in terms of global links, Shetland is no longer an island. Today, many true-blue younger Shetlanders do not use dialect (indeed, can't use it). Should we ridicule our native-born offspring for lack of ability with the dialect, or just so-called incomers? My bairns can't use it, and they're "ethnic Shetlanders" (if such a phrase can be used).

 

There is a lack of will in Shetland to keep the day-to day (as opposed to the historical/literary contexts) of dialect alive. As a Shetlander, I consider the attitudes of Shetlanders as one of the main problems.

[nautim]

As far as I am aware schools do try to encourage dialect, but sometimes it's restricted to particular 'lessons'. Primary schools have a range of resources like cds of dialect speakers reading poems and the latest idea is to have pupils sing dialect songs as this is seen as being more accessible than poetry as a starting point.

 

In my opinion the problem of us losing our dialect started when it was considered unacceptable in schools. As a child I was told not to speak dialect in school and was corrected for the wrong use of things like 'you' and 'du'. I still speak in dialect. I can 'correct my speaking' to be understood by people with no knowledge of the dialect, but by and large people understand what I say. If they don't they ask and I give them an alternative word. Ok I get ridiculed by some teenagers for my accent, but they are very much in the minority of all the youngsters I know, and tend to be the ones who ridicule anything that moves!

 

Can other people speak dialect? Well they can, but it sounds funny to my ears, but I suspect no funnier than my attempts at French sound to a French speaker. Whether they should use dialect or not is a decision for that person themselves. I do have friends who have resisted speaking dialect for years, but who find themselves using more and more words unwittingly due to their exposure to my language.

 

I don't know if the dialect will die out completely, but I think we would be poorer if it did. We have the opportunity to try to make sure that it doesn't by carrying on using the dialect as much as possible.

[mainlander]

my friend , i am sorry to tell you that as a native Shetland speaking Shetlander, a whole day can pass and i wont hear another Shetland voice in my area

 

That's certainly sad, fleabee.

 

I have never really paid much attention to who was speaking what when I have been visiting Shetland, but thinking about it, most folk who were speaking with various Shetland accents (although I don't know whether they were born and bred Shetlanders) were speaking Scots with a scattering of Shetland words (like peerie, muckle, skorie, bruck, etc.). Edit: If I had thought about at it the time, I suppose I would have thought that they would probably speak more broad Shetland when they were in different circumstances.

 

On mainland Scotland different areas will also have a certain amount of different words they use, so maybe it is right that Shetland as a distinct language is dying out, which seems to be the experience of Ghostrider and fleabee? In which case joenorth would have a good point when he says:

 

All languages have regional variations. Most have a formally recognised standard, which, I guess, has been accepted as such after the passage of time (I know this is oversimplistic, but necessary for brevity of explanation). Our dialect need be seen no differently. To survive, it should be treated as a language, regardless of self-defeating arguments whether in linguistic/orthographic terms it is "actually" a dialect of Scots.

 

I do agree with Malachy's post, and wouldn't like to think that folk from England or further afield would be laughed at where I live if they began to use Scots words.

 

All this stuff about incomers not being able to speak dialect sounds, and making fools of themselves is hugely patronising. Imagine if we laughed at any foreigner speaking English and told them not to bother because they just sound stupid. That's exactly what happens in Shetland.

[crofter]

All this stuff about incomers not being able to speak dialect sounds, and making fools of themselves is hugely patronising. Imagine if we laughed at any foreigner speaking English and told them not to bother because they just sound stupid.

 

But it is not really the same. For example, somebody who speaks a language unknown in Shetland must use english (however badly) to be understood. English speakers do not need to use dialect to be understood, indeed if they do use it it, there is more chance of confusion. It would be like if I moved to London and started speaking in rhyming slang with a shetland accent - I suspect I would be laughed at?

[crofter]

In my opinion the problem of us losing our dialect started when it was considered unacceptable in schools. As a child I was told not to speak dialect in school and was corrected for the wrong use of things like 'you' and 'du'.

 

This is a big part of it I think, also parents who knap to their bairns (I do it myself) because this idea that dialect is "inferior" has been instilled.

[upmakk]

All this stuff about incomers not being able to speak dialect sounds, and making fools of themselves is hugely patronising. Imagine if we laughed at any foreigner speaking English and told them not to bother because they just sound stupid.

 

But it is not really the same. For example, somebody who speaks a language unknown in Shetland must use english (however badly) to be understood. English speakers do not need to use dialect to be understood, indeed if they do use it it, there is more chance of confusion. It would be like if I moved to London and started speaking in rhyming slang with a shetland accent - I suspect I would be laughed at?

 

Probably. But would they laugh tolerantly with you, or contemptuously at you?

 

If I understand Malachy aright, that's the point he's making - non-Shetlanders trying to speak in dialect should be at least tolerated, preferably encouraged. Treating their attempts with scorn isn't helpful to promotion of dialect - or indeed to Shetland's reputation for hospitable

welcome.

[crofter]

All this stuff about incomers not being able to speak dialect sounds, and making fools of themselves is hugely patronising. Imagine if we laughed at any foreigner speaking English and told them not to bother because they just sound stupid.

 

But it is not really the same. For example, somebody who speaks a language unknown in Shetland must use english (however badly) to be understood. English speakers do not need to use dialect to be understood, indeed if they do use it it, there is more chance of confusion. It would be like if I moved to London and started speaking in rhyming slang with a shetland accent - I suspect I would be laughed at?

 

Probably. But would they laugh tolerantly with you, or contemptuously at you?

 

If I understand Malachy aright, that's the point he's making - non-Shetlanders trying to speak in dialect should be at least tolerated, preferably encouraged. Treating their attempts with scorn isn't helpful to promotion of dialect - or indeed to Shetland's reputation for hospitable

welcome.

 

OK, that is fair enough. The sneering attitude is a sad fact of shetland life though. Although I would never laugh (out loud) at newbie dialect speakers, I am probably programmed to knap in reply!

[Kavi Ugl]

Malachy, it's not "doom-mongering" at all. There has been a systematic "ethnic cleansing" of the Shetland dialect by the education system.

 

I have heard with my own ears and seen with my own eyes a fellow pupil being reprimanded and told to "speak proper" during a history lesson at the AHS. And when was this?. Back in 1983.....

 

I don't blame incomers(where did that come from?) for it at all either. We(Shetlanders as a whole) are as much to blame as anybody because we wouldn't stand up and fight for our heritage.

 

As for those who "give up their time to teach it"(Shetlandforwirds?) I have been very reliably informed that they are a law to themselves and won't take advice from anybody who's not connected to them.

 

What has also been missed out here is the work by Jakob Jakobson who gathered thousands of the old words and names.

 

I also believe there is a Faroese man who is trying to re-create Shetland's old norn language. I think this is his website.

 

http://shetlandnorn.webs.com/wordlist.htm

 

Now, supposing he succeeds and puts forward a language that could actually be taught would the Shetland or Scottish education system recognise and allow it to be taught in our schools?.

[Malachy]

As for those who "give up their time to teach it"(Shetlandforwirds?) I have been very reliably informed that they are a law to themselves and won't take advice from anybody who's not connected to them.

 

I'm not sure your informant is so reliable. Shetland ForWirds are an open group with open meetings, advertised in the Shetland Times. So anyone is entitled to go along and be involved. If you don't go along then of course you can sit here and complain that they're unrepresentative because they're not taking your views into account, but that's not a reflection on them. You have chosen not to be involved, they have not excluded you. And that's fine. Many people prefer to do nothing but grumble, rather than actually do something that requires action. But personally I have a lot of respect for those who are prepared to openly debate the situation and try to consider positive actions. My advice would be, if you feel strongly, go to the next meeting when it's advertised and put your views across. If you're told to shut up and get out, then feel free to come back and complain, but it's a bit dishonest to mutter about them here as though they were some kind of secret organisation with sinister powers when you haven't actually been excluded from anything.

 

On the words question, you haven't actually tackled the issue mentioned several times about changed lifestyles. Many of the 'lost' dialect words concern a lifestyle of crofting and fishing that most Shetlanders no longer have any connection to. Keeping those kind of words in use will be incredibly difficult, probably impossible, but that's nobody's fault. I don't know those kind of words in English, so it's a bit unfair to expect Shetland kids to learn them when they have no relevance to their lives. Dialect cannot be preserved in aspic (resurrecting Norn would be the absolute extreme of this desire). It has to be allowed to live, and I think Shetland ForWirds are doing some good work, with very limited resources, to try and allow that to happen. It would be nice if there were a more positive attitude shown by more people. That in itself would be a huge step forward.

[Ghostrider]

I also believe there is a Faroese man who is trying to re-create Shetland's old norn language. I think this is his website.

 

http://shetlandnorn.webs.com/wordlist.htm

 

If whats on here is correct, I see a few Shetland words that are still in everyday use (by some of us) largely unchanged from the original Norn.