The name of Shetland's written and spoken form

[Evertype]

I've been hearing things on another list which puzzle me greatly. The thesis is that some names for "Shetland's written and spoken form" are considered offensive. I would like to know what people think. I'm putting the poll options in alphabetical order. The question is framed without reference to offensiveness; after you vote, please give your rationale for or against any of the options.

[Ghostrider]

Can't vote, as I'd say 'Shaetlin', but that's just nit picking over spelling.

 

The spoken form has always been referred to as Shaetlin by its users all my life, as in 'spaekin Shaetlin' as opposed to 'spaekin Sooth' (English). It works, its understood by, and is the title of choice among the majority of those who speak it, what more do you want.

 

A quick critique (IMHO)....

 

Dialect - Connotations of "country bumpkin" for many.

Dialect of Shetland - As above, but a more complicated mouthful.

English of Shetland - Contradiction in terms.

Shaetlan - Change the final 'a' to an 'i' and I'll buy it.

Shetland dialect - As per 1 and 2, but probably the best (albeit very poor) second choice name from these.

Shetlandic - Connotations of "high brow" and/or "intellectual" for some.

Shetlandic dialect - See both above - then combine the reviews - just too complicated.

It doesn't have a name - It may never have been officially or purposely named, but it has whatever name folk by default refer to it by. In my experience that is predominantly "Shaetlin".

It shouldn't have a name - That to my mind, would be silly. Without some sort of title there is no way of referencing it.

[Malachy]

Can't vote, as I'd say 'Shaetlin', but that's just nit picking over spelling.

Too right it is!

 

Shaetlan/Shaetlin is, as Ghostrider says, how most speakers would refer to it in conversation. It does present a slight issue for those with different accents since that word may sound odd spoken in a 'standard English' sentence, but...?

Of course, the name of a language within that language is going to be different from the name others call it (Danish / Dansk etc etc). So, this is actually not an entirely simple question. Shaetlan speakers may call it Shaetlan, but is it to be known as Shaetlan in English also? That is perhaps a more interesting question.

 

Shetlandic is a bit offputting because it's so obviously a political term.

[Evertype]

To the first point, I'd seen "Shaetlan" elsewhere on this forum; I can't edit the poll once any comments have been made. Otherwise I'd edit it to "Shaetlan ~ Shaetlin ~ Shetlin etc" because in the context of the poll, the specific spelling of the "native" term doesn't matter.

 

To the second point, the two of you have said:

Shetlandic - Connotations of "high brow" and/or "intellectual" for some.

 

Shetlandic is a bit offputting because it's so obviously a political term.

Can you explain this a bit? Don't we say Icelandic and Greenlandic indifferently in English, without either being considered "highbrow" or "intellectual" or "political"?

[Evertype]

Thinking on this a bit more, we's probably say Gothlandic and Jutlandic in standard English. Maybe either Rhinelandic and Rhinish would do.

 

It's true that we don't say Englandic or Irelandic or Scotlandic. Though does that imply Shettish? It certainly wouldn't imply Iceish or Greenish.

 

Correction: I note that the Danish dialect is called either Jutlandic or Jutish in English.

[Pleepsie]

In standard English, what is wrong with 'Shetland'. After all the word 'english' covers the spoken and written versions of English.

[Ghostrider]

^^ You're bumping in to the differing conventions between speaking English and Shaetlin with that. While it is natural for an English speaker to add the "ic" suffix to denote "of" or "belonging to", there is no such convention or equivalent in Shaetlin, therefor to have it used in reference to us sounds alien and un-natural.

 

When speaking in Shaetlin a single term is usually all encompassing for any nation or nationally defined entity, with qualifications added as necessary. Shetlandic comes off as high brow or political largely because it is terminologhy that belongs to a foreign language, not our own.

[upmakk]

The spoken form has always been referred to as Shaetlin by its users all my life, as in 'spaekin Shaetlin' as opposed to 'spaekin Sooth' (English). It works, its understood by, and is the title of choice among the majority of those who speak it, what more do you want.

My thinking too.

[Evertype]

Well, yes, but I don't say "I've just read a new Deutsch translation of Alice in Wonderland", or "I've just bought a new Kernowek book called Devocyon dhe Greryow." I say "a German translation" an "a new Cornish book".

 

I certainly understand that no morphological suffix is added to Shaetlan, but what I was interested in is the "standard" language's term for the language. Certainly in the wider English-speaking world the sentence "I've bought a new Shaetlan dictionary" wouldn't really mean anything.

 

I've seen suggestions (also on this forum in postings from 2007) that many people find "Shetlandic" be problematic. What I'm trying to ascertain is really how problematic. Is it so offensive that it would keep a person from buying a book? Say, if Wind and the Willows were translated and the front cover said "Translated into Shetlandic by William Burgess"—would "Shetlandic" mar the book irretrievably?

 

For me as an English speaker (fairly conservative Eastern Pennsylvanian with an overlay twenty years of living in Ireland) there is a terminological distinction between A Shetland-English Dictionary (which would be a dictionary of English as spoken in Shetland) and A Shetlandic-English Dictionary (which would a bilingual dictionary translating Shaetlan spaek into English).

 

Sociolinguistics are difficult, I understand. In Ireland some people are comfortable using the word "Gaelic" to refer to Irish; others would never do so, and cite the Constitution as "defining" it as "Irish"; others would accept "Irish Gaelic" but not "Gaelic", etc.

 

From my reading I get the impression that since there's "discomfort" of some kind about a suitable term in standard English, that people are preferring to "demote" the language by not giving it a name at all... making it just a "dialect" regardless of its actual linguistic status...

 

Apologies if my attempts to explain what I'm talking about are very muddled...

[Ghostrider]

The problem arises in how non-Shaetlin speaking individuals choose to converse with those who do speak it, and probably in its simplest terms comes down to one of respect.

 

To utilise your own examples, certainly an English speaker would not use the term "Deutsch translation" when speaking to another English speaker, however they probably would at least try to use the word "Deutsch" when having an identical conversatoion with a German speaker.

 

To me the term "Shetland-English" Dictionary makes perfect sense, whereas the "Shetlandic-English" one does not. In the former I would expect to find a list of Shetland words accompanied by their English meaning, in the latter I wouldn't really know what to expect to find.

 

Were any book on offer having "Translated into Shetlandic" on the cover, while it might not stop me from buying it, it would certainly strongly discourage me from doing so, on no other grounds than if the translator was happy for their work to be put on sale with a description of that particular wording on the cover, I would have serious doubts of their knowledge and understanding of the language, and the contents wouldn't be of any particularly worthwhile quality.

 

It could have been worse though, it could have said "Translated in to the Shetlandic", that some English speakers insist on using, which is just all kinds of wrong.

 

Certainly whatever terminology non-Shaetlin speakers use between themselves when referencing Shaetlin, is their business. As per your example, two English speakers would choose the "german transaltion" terminology when talking with each other, but it would be hoped that if a English speaker was having the same conversation with a German speaker, they would at least use the word "deutsch". The same applies with Shaetlin, between two English speakers, I see no issue if they choose "Shetlandic", "Shetland Dialect" or whatever they best understand the subject matter by, but when an English speaker is talking with a Shaetlin speaker, it would be hoped they would at least try and use terminology that is clearly understood.

 

Possibly I may be the only Shaetlin speaker, but I suspect not, that really does not have the first clue exactly what an English speaker means when they use the term "Shetlandic".

[upmakk]

I certainly understand that no morphological suffix is added to Shaetlan, but what I was interested in is the "standard" language's term for the language. Certainly in the wider English-speaking world the sentence "I've bought a new Shaetlan dictionary" wouldn't really mean anything.

Spell it 'Shetland', then.

 

I've seen suggestions (also on this forum in postings from 2007) that many people find "Shetlandic" be problematic. What I'm trying to ascertain is really how problematic. Is it so offensive that it would keep a person from buying a book? Say, if Wind and the Willows were translated and the front cover said "Translated into Shetlandic by William Burgess"—would "Shetlandic" mar the book irretrievably?

It would elicit a groan, in much the same way that calling the islands 'the Shetlands' elicits a groan from locals.

 

For me as an English speaker (fairly conservative Eastern Pennsylvanian with an overlay twenty years of living in Ireland) there is a terminological distinction between A Shetland-English Dictionary (which would be a dictionary of English as spoken in Shetland) and A Shetlandic-English Dictionary (which would a bilingual dictionary translating Shaetlan spaek into English).

'Shetland' is the native term. Is making things easier for non-natives a good enough reason for adopting a different term? Wouldn't changing carry a risk of undermining our own arguments for its distinctiveness?

[Evertype]

The problem arises in how non-Shaetlin speaking individuals choose to converse with those who do speak it, and probably in its simplest terms comes down to one of respect.

Well, no. I mean of course nobody wants to piss anyone else off, but it's a question of terminology in standard English that I'm trying to work out.

 

To utilise your own examples, certainly an English speaker would not use the term "Deutsch translation" when speaking to another English speaker, however they probably would at least try to use the word "Deutsch" when having an identical conversatoion with a German speaker.

Only if they were speaking German. The point is that "German" is the English term for "Deutsch". "Cornish is the English term for "Kernowek". What is the English term for Shaetlan?

 

To me the term "Shetland-English" Dictionary makes perfect sense, whereas the "Shetlandic-English" one does not. In the former I would expect to find a list of Shetland words accompanied by their English meaning, in the latter I wouldn't really know what to expect to find.

To me, the term "Shetland-English" mightn't imply anything more than standard English with a Shetland accent, while "Shetlandic" is clearly a language term, as "Icelandic" is.

 

Were any book on offer having "Translated into Shetlandic" on the cover, while it might not stop me from buying it, it would certainly strongly discourage me from doing so, on no other grounds than if the translator was happy for their work to be put on sale with a description of that particular wording on the cover, I would have serious doubts of their knowledge and understanding of the language, and the contents wouldn't be of any particularly worthwhile quality.

Ah, now, but you're dodging the question. What should it say on the cover? Translated into Shaetlan? That's just "Translated into Deutsch", isn't it?

 

Well, OK, it might say:

 

Translatit intae Scots by X.

Turn't intae Ulster Scots bae Y.

*Pitten ower intae Shaetlan bi Z. (Ok, this is Scots apart for the S word.)

 

But "Translated into Shetland" or "Translated into Shetlandic" are all I can think likely for standard English, and the former sounds as… infelicitous… as do "Translated into Iceland" or "Translated into England".

 

It could have been worse though, it could have said "Translated in to the Shetlandic", that some English speakers insist on using, which is just all kinds of wrong.

Well, that would be just as archaic and strange for any language: "Translated into the Irish" or the like.

 

Certainly whatever terminology non-Shaetlin speakers use between themselves when referencing Shaetlin, is their business.

Well, yes...

As per your example, two English speakers would choose the "german transaltion" terminology when talking with each other, but it would be hoped that if a English speaker was having the same conversation with a German speaker, they would at least use the word "deutsch".

Not if they were speaking English.

The same applies with Shaetlin, between two English speakers, I see no issue if they choose "Shetlandic", "Shetland Dialect" or whatever they best understand the subject matter by, but when an English speaker is talking with a Shaetlin speaker, it would be hoped they would at least try and use terminology that is clearly understood.

Well, I'm confused again. Doesn't it depend on which language they are speaking?

 

Possibly I may be the only Shaetlin speaker, but I suspect not, that really does not have the first clue exactly what an English speaker means when they use the term "Shetlandic".

As an English speaker I can say that the only meaning it would have would be the indigenous language of Shetland (not Norn, that being extinct).

[bug]

Regarding all of the above some English speakers may prefer to use the name "Shet" which unfortunately when spoken in the isles can come across as "Sh*t". Not very desirable on a book's front cover.

[trout]

I go with Ghostrider's initital post on the subject bar I would actually say Shaetlan.

 

Very interested in the thread alongside Importance of Norn Today since Depooperit initiated varying points I'd not had a chance to think about prior. Ties in with this one in several ways, no? Doesn't all of this also tie together with how there are potential elements of social identity crisis with what exactly Shaetlan/Shetland/Shetland Islands/random viking 'stuff' is in providing Shetland with its distinctive socio-cultural being?

 

Much pervades our society in pinning down exactly what Shetland currently is which is pretty self evident in many threads on Shetlink. Not least with attempts of annexing islands but also through conversations on racism, SIC's cultural 'strategy', outcries in education, music venues, etc. etc. the list goes on.....

 

... the very thing that sproots out our mouth is pretty central to all of this!?

[Ghostrider]

The problem arises in how non-Shaetlin speaking individuals choose to converse with those who do speak it, and probably in its simplest terms comes down to one of respect.

Well, no. I mean of course nobody wants to piss anyone else off, but it's a question of terminology in standard English that I'm trying to work out.

 

I don't know, only someone with standard English as their first language, or with a good knowledge of English can answer that. My first language is Shaetlin, I can write standard English reasonably well (I think), but speaking in is a whole other matter.

 

To utilise your own examples, certainly an English speaker would not use the term "Deutsch translation" when speaking to another English speaker, however they probably would at least try to use the word "Deutsch" when having an identical conversatoion with a German speaker.

Only if they were speaking German. The point is that "German" is the English term for "Deutsch". "Cornish is the English term for "Kernowek". What is the English term for Shaetlan?

 

As someone with Shaetlin as a first language, and English as a second, I'd prefer,and would understand it perfectly for the English term to be 'Shetland', but from what you say, first language English speakers would prefer it, or at least only fully understand it if the term were 'Shetlandic' or 'Shetland Dialect'. Hence we would seem to have an impasse.

 

Were any book on offer having "Translated into Shetlandic" on the cover, while it might not stop me from buying it, it would certainly strongly discourage me from doing so, on no other grounds than if the translator was happy for their work to be put on sale with a description of that particular wording on the cover, I would have serious doubts of their knowledge and understanding of the language, and the contents wouldn't be of any particularly worthwhile quality.

Ah, now, but you're dodging the question. What should it say on the cover? Translated into Shaetlan? That's just "Translated into Deutsch", isn't it?

 

Well, OK, it might say:

 

Translatit intae Scots by X.

Turn't intae Ulster Scots bae Y.

*Pitten ower intae Shaetlan bi Z. (Ok, this is Scots apart for the S word.)

 

But "Translated into Shetland" or "Translated into Shetlandic" are all I can think likely for standard English, and the former sounds as… infelicitous… as do "Translated into Iceland" or "Translated into England".

 

Well, what it should be depends on several factors, and all have different answers. The "safe" version would be "Translated in to Shetland", it would not offend Shetland Speakers, and would at least be partially understood by non-Shetland speakers. Admittedly its weak, but its the least harm/most good option for all audiences.

 

It may be worth noting here, that while Shetland and English are related languages, they operate on largely different conventions, direct literal translation between the two invariably leads to largely incomprehensible gibberish.

 

English of course uses the terms England and English, in the same manner as it uses Iceland and Icelandic to denote the location by the former and belonging to that location by the latter. This does not occur in Shetland, the same word means both, the differential in meaning between location and associated with that location by the context of usage or by qualification.

 

With that in mind, most Shetland speakers have Shetland as their first oral language and English as a second, but at the same time have English as their first written language and Shetland as their second. Somewhere in the mix up, certain conventions of English which are not shared by Shetland become inherently alien to the eyes and ears of Shetland speakers. The apprently natural inclination of first language English speakers to refer to "the Shetlands" instead of "Shetland" for the location, and to refer to "Shetlandic" instead of "Shetland" for the language rank quite near the top of that list.

 

No doubt someone more qualified than me may well be able to provide a better explanation for it, but as I see it it is two languages which are alike enough that they are effectively interchangable at first glance, but are unlike enough that when that is tried, certain fundamental conventions of one create terminology in the other that is abhorrent to first language speakers of the first, as the result flies in the face of a fundamental convention of their mother tongue.

 

It could have been worse though, it could have said "Translated in to the Shetlandic", that some English speakers insist on using, which is just all kinds of wrong.

Well, that would be just as archaic and strange for any language: "Translated into the Irish" or the like.

 

Yes, it would be archaic, but it is also a well used form of English by first language Gaelic speakers when they speak in English, and the use of the same habit is symptomatic of those English speakers who do not realise that the Western Isles and the Northern Isles are two very different places with two significantly different backgrounds, cultures, languages etc etc.

 

Its also worth noting that elements of Shetland have much in common with archaic English anyway. I don't think its coincidental that that is the case, and that only real access Shetlanders had to English for several centuries was from the Bible and the man who preached from it every sunday, and it was in that time of life written in what is now archaic English.