Sectarianism

[Stan]

db says "As far as I'm concerned there is no debate, no argument, no doubt whatsoever. There is nothing sung at Celtic Park which even comes close to matching the odious "Billy Boys" ".

 

Unfortunately it's that kind of 'head in the sand' attitude that i've experienced for years when it comes to this - "we don't dae nuthin neither we do - we're good guys innat". Complete denial of facts is not going to move the problem on.

 

As for your Corries query (and I'm a fan of theirs) to be honest I can't be bothered to plough through their back catalogue, but for starters, how about a song glorifying in the deaths of government troops - the Haughs of Cromdale:

 

"The Gordons boldly did advance

The Frasers fought with sword and lance

The Grahams they made the heids tae dance

Upon the Haughs o' Cromdale

 

Then the loyal Stewarts wi' Montrose

So boldly set upon their foes

Laid them low wi' Hieland blows

Played them all on Cromdale

Of twenty thousand Cromwell's men

A thousand fled tae Aberdeen

The rest o' them lie on the plain

There on the Haughs o' Cromdale"

 

Perhaps we can agree to differ on this topic, toast each others health in a pub somewhere sometime and hope that the Scottish Executive decide to target other areas of Scottish society where the problem breeds and is the cause rather than trying to focus most of their efforts on the football fan.

[penfold]

db says "As far as I'm concerned there is no debate, no argument, no doubt whatsoever. There is nothing sung at Celtic Park which even comes close to matching the odious "Billy Boys" ".

 

Unfortunately it's that kind of 'head in the sand' attitude that i've experienced for years when it comes to this - "we don't dae nuthin neither we do - we're good guys innat". Complete denial of facts is not going to move the problem on.

 

As for your Corries query (and I'm a fan of theirs) to be honest I can't be bothered to plough through their back catalogue, but for starters, how about a song glorifying in the deaths of government troops - the Haughs of Cromdale:

 

"The Gordons boldly did advance

The Frasers fought with sword and lance

The Grahams they made the heids tae dance

Upon the Haughs o' Cromdale

 

Then the loyal Stewarts wi' Montrose

So boldly set upon their foes

Laid them low wi' Hieland blows

Played them all on Cromdale

Of twenty thousand Cromwell's men

A thousand fled tae Aberdeen

The rest o' them lie on the plain

There on the Haughs o' Cromdale"

 

Perhaps we can agree to differ on this topic, toast each others health in a pub somewhere sometime and hope that the Scottish Executive decide to target other areas of Scottish society where the problem breeds and is the cause rather than trying to focus most of their efforts on the football fan.

 

I widna care Stan but that song was made up to make the highlanders feel better we got trounced at that encounter, killiecrankie now there's a song for ye! or the battle o prestonpans, weep ye by atholl, or the sherramuir fight now that was the one when the campbells( west Highland protestants and formerly staunch government backers) fought on the side of the stuarts cos they had a cob on wi the hanoverians, politics are complex and always has been STOP looking back cos you'll trip over the s**t thats in front of you!

[JustMe]

Stan wrote

Forget about 1690? Then what, forget about 1914-18 and then 1939-45? Regardless of when it happened, people fought and died for liberty and freedom of speech and thought. They should never be forgotten. William of Orange's fight was against those who were against those ideals. He was even sent a message of congratulations on his victory by the Pope! Nobody seems to bother that the 'Tartan Army' keep going on about Bannockburn - and that was 1314!

 

Yes!.....it is about time 1690 and indeed Bannockburn were reduced to nothing more than entries in a history book rather than being part of the hate preached by elements of both sides.

 

As for the two world wars I believe it is time that the "victory parades" element of remembering the dead should stop leaving those who do remember the dead to do so quietly while the rest of us can try to learn some lessons from past conficts such as how to avoid future conflicts.

[Tomblands]

 

Forget about 1690? Then what, forget about 1914-18 and then 1939-45? Regardless of when it happened, people fought and died for liberty and freedom of speech and thought. They should never be forgotten. William of Orange's fight was against those who were against those ideals. He was even sent a message of congratulations on his victory by the Pope! Nobody seems to bother that the 'Tartan Army' keep going on about Bannockburn - and that was 1314!

 

Best not get me started on the Tartan Army. You have to remember a fair whack of the members who go on about 1314 also take Braveheart as gospel.

 

Actually I am being harsh on the TA. I generally like what they stand for and they do add a certain colour to the game, it's some of their members attitudes that I find testing. Those who consider themselves "elite" because they have been to more away games than others. And those who refuse to believe that a Scotland fan could cause trouble in another country. Only a few months ago there were people defending a TA member on the TAMB because he was a "cracking guy" and a "good laugh", despite a number of people stating that he spent the bus journey to the stadium for the game against Spain (1-1, floodlight failure game) trying to kick the back window out of the bus. It seems that some of them consider a Scotland fan doing this to be "a laugh", I'll bet they would be the first to jump on their horses had an England fan decided to do that.

 

Tangents? What are they?

[moorit]

db, try not to get stuck in the debate that Stan mentions about 'your songs are worse than ours'. It is an issue that both Protestants and Catholics have to deal with, and debating semantics about songs doesn't get to the crux of the issue.

 

 

I have no intention of getting stuck in anything. As far as I'm concerned there is no debate, no argument, no doubt whatsoever.

 

There is nothing sung at Celtic Park which even comes close to matching the odious "Billy Boys". That is the only point I was trying to get across and thus far no one has proved me wrong.

 

The enthusiasm of the MAJORITY of the Rangers home support in belting out this song at EVERY home game can be heard clearly. Why it's allowed to continue baffles me.

 

I care not one jot for the Catholic / Protestant differences. I'm talking about human beings glorifying being "up to their knees" in the blood of other human beings.

 

Anyway, I've had it with this thread. It's a debate which will go round in circles forevermore as far as I can see.

 

Still waiting for an answer re the Corries lyrics BTW.

 

 

Are you by any chance a Celtic supporter dB ?

[Frankie]

 

 

How about sharing with us which of these are sung at Celtic Park.

 

 

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/c/celtic/5320518.stm

 

You should maybe ask Brian Quinn. He seems to think there are offensive songs sung by Celtic supporters at matches.

[JVRTENNENTS]

Hi guys. Good to see my letter has sparked an interesting debate although it now appears to be going round in circles and back to the old "you're worse than us" line. Unfortunately my letter was edited a wee bit by the Shetland Times. A couple of the missing bits may have have explained some of my reasoning behind my view. The main thrust of the letter was to get across that Jim Tait was repeating parrot-fashion the usual nonsense about the Rangers fans songs being worse than anyone else's without exception.

 

If anyone's interested they can read my full letter at:

 

http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?forumID=82558&subForumID=246615&action=viewTopic&commentID=6771767&topicPage=

 

The "Billy Boys" is not sectarian. Fenians consisted of Protestants as well as Catholics. It is not bigoted. I will not go as far as to say it is a love song! Being "up to our knees in Fenian blood" is no worse than singing along with the Corries about glorifying in killing hundreds of troops loyal to the crown. Dictionary definition of bigot - someone with a fixed and intolerant belief. Singing about defending your own country against people who would quite happily kill you is fine by me and does not make the song bigoted. Is it appropriate to sing at a football match? That's up to the individual. As I say, great tunes, good songs but don't be so quick to be offended.

 

Name me a song that Rangers fans sing that is anti-catholic? And I don't mean any song that has derogatory remarks regarding the Pope tagged on. As my letter says, these are being eradicated. I can only think of "No, no Pope of Rome, no chapels to sadden my eyes...". This song is now, thankfully a rare occurence. I'll defend anybody's right of freedom to sing such a song but it's anti-catholic and not appropriate. Pro-protestant/orange songs are acceptable. They are not sectarian and do not glorify terrorism.

 

Celtic fans can call me an Orange b*****d if they wish, in the same way they called Alex McLeish in song that at the last league match of the season - AT CELTIC PARK which I believe is Celtic's home ground! Tell me that's not sectarian! However, it's not the kind of thing you want to be shouting in front of your kid. It's not the 'Orange' bit, I wouldn't want them to hear the "b*****d"!

 

There are far worse songs than these being sung at grounds across the country. Partick Thistle fans shout derogatory remarks regarding the Pope AND the Queen! That surely makes them as bad as the Old Firm put together!!

 

It's a Glasgow thing - occasionally some fans of the Edinburgh teams will immitate their "big brothers". I honestly believe that this debate would not be happening if we had integrated schools the same way they have here in Shetland. If it remains as it is, children in the Central belt will continue to grow up divided educationally from their mates a few doors down and therefore divided by religion. They will go to school and hear about "St Josephs" at the other end of town and wonder "why"? Or the kids will get all excited about the rivalry between their school team and the "proddy" school's team.

 

Integration must start as soon as possible and perhaps those who don't like the songs will find that they start to disappear from football grounds. That may stop the innoffensive religious songs but who's teaching folk to sing songs about IRA murders, dead Rangers fans and dead Rangers players?

 

Cheers folks.

 

The Billy Boys refers to a time when the 'fenian blood' was that of innocent Catholics in Glasgow between World Wars.What these people think is now neither here nor there,UEFA decreed it as sectarian and FIFA are giving Rangers FC some leeway at the moment as they are fully aware that in world football no club is steeped in racial or religious hatred like Rangers FC.

[dB]

 

 

How about sharing with us which of these are sung at Celtic Park.

 

 

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/c/celtic/5320518.stm

 

You should maybe ask Brian Quinn. He seems to think there are offensive songs sung by Celtic supporters at matches.

 

 

Frankie, nobody's denying that ALL clubs have a number of "fans" who don't care how they embarrass "their" club. I can not deny that a small minority of so-called Celtic fans sing certain songs which some find offensive at AWAY matches. If you read the complete article you'll find they're what Brian Quinn is referring to.

I've been going to Celtic Park since the mid-70's and can honestly say that I can't remember the last time I heard a song or chant referring to the IRA. It just doesn't happen any more.

[Frankie]

dB, I'm not quite sure why you keep referring to these offensive songs apparently only being sung at AWAY matches. What is your point ?

[Stan]

The Billy Boys refers to a time when the 'fenian blood' was that of innocent Catholics in Glasgow between World Wars.What these people think is now neither here nor there,UEFA decreed it as sectarian and FIFA are giving Rangers FC some leeway at the moment as they are fully aware that in world football no club is steeped in racial or religious hatred like Rangers FC.

 

I hope that this is just a bit of light-hearted tongue-in-cheek posturing designed to bait us Bears because all but one of the comments are true, the other being inaccurate:

 

The 'Fenian blood'? I can't be bothered to regurgitate the facts other than to say that 'Fenians' does not not equal 'catholics'. More often than not they were catholics but they were not called Fenians because they were catholics. It was not religious but political. Understand?

 

"FIFA giving Rangers some leeway". When did they say this? Oh yes, that's right, they haven't. There has been no statement from FIFA other than a spokesperson saying ""There is an article in Fifa's statute to cover discrimination on race, colour, language, religion or ethnic origin". No doubt prompted by an enquiry from a journalist. It does not specify any club or target any specific country's association.

 

Your last comment regarding racist or religious hatred is a disgrace if you are serious. Perhaps this little item might be of interest to you:

 

"Former Celtic player Gerry Britton recalled the incident: 'As an apprentice professional with Celtic back in January 1988, I was appalled at the hideous racist goading of Rangers' black winger Mark Walters during his Old Firm debut at Celtic Park. I was even more sickened on the morning after the match when I was told to help clear the Parkhead trackside of the dozens of bananas that had been thrown onto the field by so-called Celtic supporters intent on upsetting the on-field focus of the Ibrox wing wizard.'"Gerry Britton, Scotland on Sunday 25 January 2004

 

Added to that was the blatant dressing up by some Celtic supporters in monkey outfits at that same match.

 

Or how about: "American midfielder Claudio Reyna of Glasgow Rangers was taunted by a fan imitating an airplane in a 'disgusting' gesture recalling the Sept. 11 terror attacks in the United States".

 

And there's Neil Lennon spitting on a Rangers scarf and calling the Rangers staff in the dugout "Orange b******s.

 

How about Celtic supporters singing to Rangers player Chris Burke; "Who's the Fenian in the blue?" A strange one if the very folk who are offended by being called Fenians are using the same language in their songs.

 

And then there's the ditty that, like certain additions to Rangers songs, is being sung a bit less frequently:

 

"Roamin in the gloamin, with the shamrock in my hand - Sinn Fein!

Roamin in the gloamin with St. Patrick's fenian band [hmm, there's that word again!]

And when the music stops

**** King Billy & John Knox!

Oh it's good to be a Roman Catholic!"

 

Here's one to sing along to at your next karaoke:

"Bless Them All, Bless Them All!

The Pope & St. Vincent De Paul

**** your King Billy 'cos he's down in hell

And **** your John Knox cos he's down there as well

When the green flag is flying so high

The Celtic will fight till they die!

For we won't be mastered, by who? by no Orange B*****d

We'll keep the green flag flying high"

 

I could go on for several pages giving other instances relating to Celtic, Hearts, Hibs, Partick Thistle and even Scotland 'fans'. And I'm sure others if I could be bothered.

 

The UEFA statement at no time used the word 'sectarian'. The word used was 'descriminatory' The examples I have given regarding Celtic supporters would be included in this. As a result neither they nor ANY club in Scotland are safe. Get your own house in order before you start picking on anyone else and do not make accusations you cannot back up. The only religious hatred at Ibrox in the past has been where songs have been altered to include 'FTP'. These are being eradicated. I have yet to hear of valid evidence regarding racism on the part of the Rangers fans.

 

As I say, I hope your post was just a wind-up. If so, fair enough and I'll take it as just being 'a bit o' craic'. If not, please read what I have said, slowly and carefully. Then let the fans of other clubs sing what they want to - 90% of which is inoffensive and the remaining 10% being gradually eliminated. To be honest, I think the whole subject of sectarianism by Celtic fans and players and Rangers fans has got blown out of all proportion by the press, the catholic church and politicians as has been proved by the recent 'Boruc Affair'.

[dB]

dB, I'm not quite sure why you keep referring to these offensive songs apparently only being sung at AWAY matches. What is your point ?

 

 

How about you tell me how Celtic Football Club control the behaviour of people at other club's grounds?

 

Celtic Football Club have made huge efforts and advances to eradicate offensive behaviour at Celtic Park. You have heard of Nil By Mouth and Bhoys Against Bigotry I hope?

 

What's your point BTW???

[Frankie]

dB, I'm not quite sure why you keep referring to these offensive songs apparently only being sung at AWAY matches. What is your point ?

 

 

How about you tell me how Celtic Football Club control the behaviour of people at other club's grounds?

 

 

What's your point BTW???

 

They could start by not selling tickets to Celtic supporter's clubs for away games.

[Commodore]

dB, I'm not quite sure why you keep referring to these offensive songs apparently only being sung at AWAY matches. What is your point ?

 

 

How about you tell me how Celtic Football Club control the behaviour of people at other club's grounds?

 

 

What's your point BTW???

 

They could start by not selling tickets to Celtic supporter's clubs for away games.

 

yeah nice one, stop selling tickets to your supporters! so who should they sell them to???

[Twerto]

the supporters once it slowly sinks in through the thick skulls as to why there not alowed to buy tickets.

[Wheesht]

dB, I'm not quite sure why you keep referring to these offensive songs apparently only being sung at AWAY matches. What is your point ?

 

 

How about you tell me how Celtic Football Club control the behaviour of people at other club's grounds?

 

 

What's your point BTW???

 

They could start by not selling tickets to Celtic supporter's clubs for away games.

 

And the club treasurers of the other SPL clubs are going to just love that.