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Gove says he is open to athiest-run free schools


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I'd rather be educated on other belief systems as brainwashed by Richard Dawkins.

 

Brainwashing and education are very much in the eye of the beholder Vicky - I'd have said I'd rather be educated by Dawkins than brainwashed by 'other belief systems'.

 

I assume 'other belief systems' is longhand for religions(s) in this context? As an atheist I have no difficulty with me or my kids being taught about religion and its role in society - what I object to is the underhand evangelism that more often than not goes with it.

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Religious instruction doesn't equate to brainwashing. In the AHS I recall it was a fairly inoffensive class that we took in 1st and 2nd year that gave an impartial overview of the various different religions which are practised the world over by millions of people.

 

Having at least some knowledge of the beliefs and cultures of other people (including Christians) is surely preferable to none at all. Or, for that matter, having to listen yet again to the oddly dogmatic arguments put forward by some Atheists, many of whom (somewhat ironically) seem to thrive on "preaching" their spiritually vacuous opinions in an often patronising and condescending fashion to those with faith - a practice I find every bit as offensive as the bible-bashing that they themselves invariably bemoan.

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Not sure about that Ally - I had the Jehovah's witnesses at the door last Saturday, so far nobody has bothered me on my own property waving a copy of 'the God Delusion' about.

 

Yes, both clans have representatives that take tedium to an Olympic level but only the theists make a business out of it.

 

But you're right - the brainwashing effects of Scottish, rural, school based RE are probably somewhat overstated.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Don't really see the point of an "atheist" school really. Unless it's a school to educate those who think atheism is a religion and Richard Dawkins convinces people with "brainwashing"...

 

The main point of school is to allow you to think for yourself, and make up your mind on all different kinds of issues in life, including religion. An atheist school that just told pupils that they should not believe would go against this. Even one where things were just taught by atheist teachers who kept pointing out that they didn't believe etc, that would be equivalent. Children are impressionable, and environment is important so this would also hinder them forming their own opinion.

 

An atheist school that was neither of these may aswell just be a school to be honest!

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Guest Anonymous

to be honest all schools that are run by religous elites eg catholic Cof E muslim etc, foster a belief in their pupils that they are somehow superior to kids from other schools, just look to Ireland to see where this elitism ends up. I cant see that an aithiest school would be any different.

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^^ I wonder what you mean by "just look to Ireland to see where this elitism ends up"

 

I'm not sure they want you to think you are better than anyone else but they are intent on keeping the catholic headcount up.

I went to both religious covent and technical vocational schools in Ireland, had one parent who was aithiest and one religious, as a child you have no choice in the religious rites you are put through but by the time I was a young teenager I had completely abondoned the catholic church. I am now trying to have my name taken off the catholic register in Ireland as my baptism was not my choice, i dont wish to be counted among thier numbers.

 

By the time I became a parent I made the decision not to have my children baptised causing great shock throughout parts of the family, I then made the decision to send my child to a multi-denominational, educate together school, where I had the choice for them not to take part in any religious education or rites but was happy for them to learn about the concept of religions.

 

Since moving here I have had a battle with certain churches and the use bribary to entice bairns to Sunday Schools using sweeties, present and treats. I've been angered lately by my 6 year old coming home with leaflets for Sunday school in her bag telling me what a fantastic place it is and she wants to go, you get sweeties and prizes was her basis for wanting to go.

 

I do think religion should be kept completely seperate from education, moral lessons can be taught without the use of religion, it should be a personal experience. I am secure in the thought that i can bring my children up with good morals and respect for other people without being religious.

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Guest Anonymous

how the hell can we expect folks to grow up and live in peace with one another when the school system in ireland seperates them at school on the grounds of religion. Those attending catholic schools are indoctranated from an early age to feel superior to any other while at the same time they are also told how the dirty prods are out to get them. And for the sake of fairness I would have to say the Cof E schools are not much better.

I'm glad you have been able to get away from the bigotry of your schooling Gypsyscy but I'm sure you will admit it has left you with demons in your closet.

but regardless of what they teach you the second you seperate kids out from one another the bigotry will creep in all by itself.

My own kid has been put in a catholic school in Ireland by his stepfathers family and it has screwed him up no end.

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I was never taught at school to hate the protestents, the catholic church are so steeped in back handers and led by mafia in the vatican that our history lessons were steeped in revisionism which pandered to the british government. My schooling never taught me I was superior to anyone else, in fact the catholic school system when taught by nuns and priests will do exactly the opposite. But I had some excellent lay teachers through my schooling that had more of a positive impact on me than the issue of religion.

 

I'm not disagreeing that it's wrong to sperate children on the grounds of religion but it is a very sweeping statment to say it creates elitism and a superiority complex amongst Irish people, which is obviously down to your disagreement of your childs schooling.

 

Once a child has all the facts as they grow and have at least one peer with an open mind and the sense to leave them all thier options open then they will make up thier own mind, trying to force thoughts either way will drive them to form extreme opinions.

Ireland is full of the 'Educate Together' schools now along with many other teaching styles that dont have religous connections. Many people are taking power away from the catholic and protestant church.[/i]

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It really shouldn't be that much of a deal, except perhaps in the light of the old Jesuit saying "Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man". Given that organised religions are basically earthly power hierarchies, you can see the appeal to the elders of having a steady flow of well-indoctrinated "canon" fodder (sorry!), many of whom probably won't ever seriously question what they learned when young. If an "atheist run" school similarly sets out just to indoctrinate the pupils in (say) militant Dawkinsean atheism, I don't think it would be any better than any other extreme faith school.

 

If, on the other hand, it can

... give them a broad comparative view of many religious beliefs

... and their roots in different human cultures

... as attempts to answer the "great questions of life"

... point out the broad areas of agreement on basic ethical questions like theft, compassion, justice

... generally make them aware of how to live among other people in a spirit of mutual respect

... then I'm all in favour.

 

Surely we need to help the next generation in our crowded world to rub along in a friendly manner and get on, not indoctrinate them with the old hatreds - or new ones - at a tender age so that they end up at one another's throats in the usual good ol' human way. I really don't care whether my neighbour believes in this face of The One God or that, or a whole pantheon of gods, or none at all. What's important is, is it safe to let my young daughter accept a lift home from school with him on a rainy day?

 

As Matthew says in the "Good Book", "by their fruits ye shall know them".

 

(Hm. Two Christian quotes in one post. Not bad for a Philosophical Taoist. :) )

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  • 2 weeks later...

"I don't think it would be any better than any other extreme faith school.

 

If, on the other hand, it can

... give them a broad comparative view of many religious beliefs

... and their roots in different human cultures

... as attempts to answer the "great questions of life"

... point out the broad areas of agreement on basic ethical questions like theft, compassion, justice "

 

Or it could just teach English, Science, Math, PE Music, etc and leave the whole business of moral and ethical education to parents.

 

Imagine that? Raising our own kids! Phew, what a concept.

 

If religion has to be mentioned, it can be done in a non judgemental context in socual studies, or history. If you want your kids to be preached at, take them to church.

 

I don't understand the agonising - its really not all that difficult. Atheism is, after all, merely an acceptance that their is no evidence for the existence of a deity - not the actual denial of it.

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I think a lot of you posting here have not really grasped prof. Dawkins position on this but rather the babble of Gove and the press. :roll:

 

To quote Dawkins -

"I would never want to indoctrinate children in atheism, any more than in religion. Instead, children should be taught to ask for evidence, to be sceptical, critical, open-minded."

 

And to quote the original linked artical -

Last month Prof Dawkins, who wrote The God Delusion, said he liked the idea of starting a "free-thinking free school".

 

Sounds pretty reasonable to me :D

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And to quote the original linked artical -
Last month Prof Dawkins, who wrote The God Delusion, said he liked the idea of starting a "free-thinking free school".

 

Sounds pretty reasonable to me :D

 

Ah but the problem with that statement is that it suggests that all people who have a faith and/or all children who attend faith schools are incapable of free-thinking...and that is as equally untrue as people saying that all atheists are immoral.

 

Simply because someone follows a faith doesn't mean that they're necessarily unable to question it or that they're blind to its faults.

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