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Margo MacDonald's Euthanasia Bill.


wullie m.
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Smart - may I ask you - are you personally, your partner, or any close relatives or friends living with a degenerative and potentially completely incapacitating disease?

 

Do you suffer from pain which cannot be treated or controlled?

{Yes, sadly, and worryingly, there IS such a thing... some pain simply does not respond to any known pharmaceutical / mechanical etc treatments}

 

Are you completely dependent on other people for your every need, eg wiping your nose when it runs, needing to be spoonfed saps, put to bed and got out of bed when it is convenient to other people despite your own personal preferences and wishes?

 

Can you communicate effectively? eg. request what you wish to be dressed in / NOT dressed in that day, successfully request to be taken to a toilet when your bowels are about to open, politely inform someone that you do NOT like cabbage and please not to be fed stuff liquidised thank you!

Can you effectively communicate to someone that you wish the radio or TV station be changed or switched off please when someone / something you absolutely detest, or something that upsets you comes on?

 

Can you effectively express and communicate your feelings and emotions ie tell someone you are scared, or lonely, or in pain, or that you really want to be left alone / don't want to be left alone that night?

 

 

Well I am living with a potentially completely incapacitating degenerative disease. I have watched friends with the same condition degenerate to the point of complete incapacity, being unable to communicate even the simplest of things.

 

One sentence is forever etched onto my memory: "We think he might be in pain?"

 

Personally, I have actively chosen to refuse medical interventions and life-prolonging treatments if / when I reach the stage that I can no longer communicate, through having an Advance Directive in place {Living Will}

 

I would prefer the option of being able to have my then-miserable existence effectively, peacefully and painlessly terminated with my family round me before I lose the ability to communicate, but that Right has been taken away from me.

 

So the only option available now, is to try and effectively terminate my existence at a much earlier stage, when I still have enough physical ability to do something, and die alone, as anyone holding my hand could be prosecuted.

 

 

Terminology clarification:

 

Euthanasia is "the painless killing of a patient {sic} suffering from a painful and incurable disease" - what we do with animals 'to put them out of their misery' - we can be prosecuted for deliberately prolonging the life of an animal which causes 'unnecessary suffering'.

 

'Assisted dying' is a completely different thing altogether: the individual with a terminal condition {who has been medically and officially declared 'of sound mind' at the time of making the decision} has previously explicitly expressed the wish to have their life ended a wee bit earlier to avoid indignities and prolonged suffering. This Decision has been put into writing in quadruplicate, discussed with, verified and signed by a Doctor, copies given to a Lawyer if necessary, Healthcare Proxies, and is also placed in your Medical Notes.

 

 

Better luck next time Margot - I'm still actively supporting the Bill!

 

 

well said mogling those are words i have been looking for but could not find

I 100 percent egree with what you say

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Smart - may I ask you - are you personally, your partner, or any close relatives or friends living with a degenerative and potentially completely incapacitating disease?

 

Do you suffer from pain which cannot be treated or controlled?

{Yes, sadly, and worryingly, there IS such a thing... some pain simply does not respond to any known pharmaceutical / mechanical etc treatments}

 

Are you completely dependent on other people for your every need, eg wiping your nose when it runs, needing to be spoonfed saps, put to bed and got out of bed when it is convenient to other people despite your own personal preferences and wishes?

 

Can you communicate effectively? eg. request what you wish to be dressed in / NOT dressed in that day, successfully request to be taken to a toilet when your bowels are about to open, politely inform someone that you do NOT like cabbage and please not to be fed stuff liquidised thank you!

Can you effectively communicate to someone that you wish the radio or TV station be changed or switched off please when someone / something you absolutely detest, or something that upsets you comes on?

 

Can you effectively express and communicate your feelings and emotions ie tell someone you are scared, or lonely, or in pain, or that you really want to be left alone / don't want to be left alone that night?

 

 

Well I am living with a potentially completely incapacitating degenerative disease. I have watched friends with the same condition degenerate to the point of complete incapacity, being unable to communicate even the simplest of things.

 

One sentence is forever etched onto my memory: "We think he might be in pain?"

 

Personally, I have actively chosen to refuse medical interventions and life-prolonging treatments if / when I reach the stage that I can no longer communicate, through having an Advance Directive in place {Living Will}

 

I would prefer the option of being able to have my then-miserable existence effectively, peacefully and painlessly terminated with my family round me before I lose the ability to communicate, but that Right has been taken away from me.

 

So the only option available now, is to try and effectively terminate my existence at a much earlier stage, when I still have enough physical ability to do something, and die alone, as anyone holding my hand could be prosecuted.

 

 

Terminology clarification:

 

Euthanasia is "the painless killing of a patient {sic} suffering from a painful and incurable disease" - what we do with animals 'to put them out of their misery' - we can be prosecuted for deliberately prolonging the life of an animal which causes 'unnecessary suffering'.

 

'Assisted dying' is a completely different thing altogether: the individual with a terminal condition {who has been medically and officially declared 'of sound mind' at the time of making the decision} has previously explicitly expressed the wish to have their life ended a wee bit earlier to avoid indignities and prolonged suffering. This Decision has been put into writing in quadruplicate, discussed with, verified and signed by a Doctor, copies given to a Lawyer if necessary, Healthcare Proxies, and is also placed in your Medical Notes.

 

 

Better luck next time Margot - I'm still actively supporting the Bill!

 

I suffer from an autoimmune disease, and there was a period of a month all things you mentioned I could not do. It's now lying dormant. But not even for a second did i contemplate any action other than getting better. If it were to return in full force, I'd feel the same.

 

Also, I've been near-death with other illnesses as well. I've never had suicidal thoughts (the euthanasia-assisted suicide talk is related to suicidal thoughts).

 

Sorry you are ill. Hopefully in the future they develop a cure for what ails you.

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It's about dignity.

 

Does any human who lived a proud life want to end up gurgling and being kept alive with machines, and have more tubes coming out of it than a fish tank?

 

No.

 

Does any human who lived a proud life want to end up splattering their brains across the walls with a shotgun leaving it for someone else to clean up?

 

No.

 

I wonder if people will guffaw back at the 00's and think "people didn't believe in ownership of their own life! what the hell!"

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^^^So basically since you don't want euthanasia you don't think anyone should have this oppertunity.....

Actually no. I just have a high view of the human species. and any eradication of a single member of the human species - or in a broader sense - any member of the primate family - is utterly unethical and cruel. Whether it is done by 'natural' causes, diseases, or this notion of euthanasia. If i based any of my beliefs/views off my personal experiences they would be without any weight to another mammal who hasn't experienced the same.

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... any eradication of a single member of the human species - or in a broader sense - any member of the primate family - is utterly unethical and cruel.

Cruel? Seems to be a peculiar choice of word. Surely cruelty requires a certain level of intentional pain or discomfort?

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Smart, sorry for not having replied, lost internet for last few days. Keeping this short in case I get cut off again, but hoping to get chance to reply to your last post to me, as there are points to sort out, but at the moment I can only shake my head in wonder, or should that be dis-belief? I'll be back....[/img]

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Right, here we go.

I am rubbish at this quoting larg, so I am doing it the old-fashioned way.

 

Your statement that the idea of overpopulation is based on racism I find truly astonishing. Never mind your 'fact' that the planet is underpopulted is indeed news for me, which will surely keep me pondering for a fair while.

 

I was not making an assertion about your knowledge of embryology. So if life in your view begins at the point of birth, how can abortion be murder? The embryo clearly wasn't alive before birth, by your own words. Please tell me I am incorrect in understanding your next statement as you denying a rape or incest victim the chance of an abortion? Yes, I can really see a victim of those crimes being over the moon with that stance! Anyway, you just said before that life only begins at birth, is that not a total contradiction then to deny a woman an abortion? After all, the foetos is not alive.

 

I never said there was a connection between orphans and overpoulation. What I did however suggest was that people adopt orphans rather than breeding themselves. Sorry, I thought that was plain.

 

I don't think oxygen is the problem in so far as valuabale rsources go. The obvious candidate there is fresh water, which is fast running out. Not to speak about food. The list goes on from there. No idea where you came up with the oxygen theory in my post. You mentioned it, not me.

 

You say every single fertile man should have children. Population explosion here we come. Here on Shetland we have a huge rabbit problem, because they adhere to that idea.......they take it very seriously indeed. Rabbits that is.

 

I was talking about any available form of contraception, not just the pill.

 

No suicidal tendencies here, just thinking and planning ahead. But as Doctors obviously no better than me and my emotions, so do you, evidently. Are you a medic, by any chance? Personally I don't trust Doctors as far as I can spit. I prefer to go to the local vets! Fast, efficient, highly sympathetic, the price is right, and if I behave myself I even get a treat and a tickle behind the ears! Oh yes, nearly forgot: they will also put me quick and painlessly to sleep should I become terribly ill.

 

I hope I have covered everything.I however agree with you that we better put this one down to cultural differences. I didn't intend for this to go off topic, and should not have replied to your bait in your first post. Silly me!

 

I reckon I have said everything I wanted to say on the actual topic in hand, and certainly won't be swayed on the matter. Margo's got my vote!

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Smart,

American?

Surely an oxymoron?

Sorry for the generalisation but most USA folk I come across on't interwebs seem to be pretty thick.

 

Nobody has any say or influence on my life or my death, other than me, got that?

 

smart ar$e

Actually no. I just have a high view of the human species. and any eradication of a single member of the human species -

Do you even know the meaning of the word "eradication"?

And just what the {'f' it was funny in Father Ted 'eck'} is "a high view of the human species." Eh!

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If someone wants to end a life of misery and pain, why is it another person can allow such pain and misery to exist in that person.

The bible condemns suicide. You will not go to the Heaven.

British law was written by the wealthy and the clerics, so as to sustain the wealthy and the clerics.

And now, a doctor can create life by inducing delivery or not end life by termination, yet we are made from human cells, so the flakes of skin and the hair follicles are human.

Yet an unborn child has its own blood supply and is not directly connected but get oxygen and nutrients by osmosis.

The " American Way" is not the best, as they are the most aggressive nation on the planet, and execute folk with learning difficulties. And there is a strong lobby, from those with huge cash pots and religion against anything that goes against their beliefs.

To remove a human being is unethical? Depends how. If done through consent and full participation I do not see a problem, why we do it to other biological creatures, those of which in the past have been condemned and executed because of religion.

I still find it amazing that because of your beliefs, you expect others to suffer indignity.

As the quote goes, "It's my life!"

I am sure some of those at Viewforth would not have wanted to end their days there.

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having read most of the posts i thought i'd put my bit in

i live with mild to medium pain everyday i have never had suicidal thoughts because my pain is nerve pain there is very little pain relief available

if in the future it gets worse i state now i will not live with it it's my body my life

if you feel it's wrong no-one is forcing you to end your life

if you have religious convictions no-one is forcing you to end your life

if you feel you can live with whatever conditions you suffer from no-one is forcing you to end your life

so why should i be forced not to end my life

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^^^ And next Smart will probably tell us that would be Gods retribution for sinful pride :wink:

G-d & Euthanasia, I don't see the connection? :x

 

... any eradication of a single member of the human species - or in a broader sense - any member of the primate family - is utterly unethical and cruel.

Cruel? Seems to be a peculiar choice of word. Surely cruelty requires a certain level of intentional pain or discomfort?

and?

 

Smart,

American?

Surely an oxymoron?

Sorry for the generalisation but most USA folk I come across on't interwebs seem to be pretty thick.

 

Nobody has any say or influence on my life or my death, other than me, got that?

 

smart ar$e

Actually no. I just have a high view of the human species. and any eradication of a single member of the human species -

Do you even know the meaning of the word "eradication"?

And just what the {'f' it was funny in Father Ted 'eck'} is "a high view of the human species." Eh!

British? Must be a pretentious twit.

 

You are right however, at least 90% of Americans aged 14-40 are daft. Thankfully, you don't have to worry about that with me.

 

I do not see how your blunt statement contributes to the euthanasia topic - you seem to be one of those people who'd vote YES to spite someone who would vote NO. But you are entitled to be as bigoted and hate-filled as you want. a Virtue enshrined in my nation's Federal documents, and perhaps one day, you will have the same freedoms [enshrined and inalienable]

 

If someone wants to end a life of misery and pain, why is it another person can allow such pain and misery to exist in that person.

The bible condemns suicide. You will not go to the Heaven.

British law was written by the wealthy and the clerics, so as to sustain the wealthy and the clerics.

And now, a doctor can create life by inducing delivery or not end life by termination, yet we are made from human cells, so the flakes of skin and the hair follicles are human.

Yet an unborn child has its own blood supply and is not directly connected but get oxygen and nutrients by osmosis.

The " American Way" is not the best, as they are the most aggressive nation on the planet, and execute folk with learning difficulties. And there is a strong lobby, from those with huge cash pots and religion against anything that goes against their beliefs.

To remove a human being is unethical? Depends how. If done through consent and full participation I do not see a problem, why we do it to other biological creatures, those of which in the past have been condemned and executed because of religion.

I still find it amazing that because of your beliefs, you expect others to suffer indignity.

As the quote goes, "It's my life!"

I am sure some of those at Viewforth would not have wanted to end their days there.

 

You assume that pain is necessarily a bad thing - it can be a great tool to keep someone on track and convince them to do those things they dreamed of as kids before "it's too late".

 

AFAIK, all religions have and continue to condemn suicide. Not just the Bible.

 

Those biological creatures are used for the continuation of the human race - and ultimately the expansion of life into the Cosmos. Do not think space colonization is a win-lose situation for Humans and animals, actually, it's a win for both.

 

Right, here we go.

I am rubbish at this quoting larg, so I am doing it the old-fashioned way.

 

Your statement that the idea of overpopulation is based on racism I find truly astonishing. Never mind your 'fact' that the planet is underpopulted is indeed news for me, which will surely keep me pondering for a fair while.

Right well, i figured you'd say just that.

 

I was not making an assertion about your knowledge of embryology. So if life in your view begins at the point of birth, how can abortion be murder? The embryo clearly wasn't alive before birth, by your own words. Please tell me I am incorrect in understanding your next statement as you denying a rape or incest victim the chance of an abortion? Yes, I can really see a victim of those crimes being over the moon with that stance! Anyway, you just said before that life only begins at birth, is that not a total contradiction then to deny a woman an abortion? After all, the foetos is not alive.

1. I never stated abortion was murder, however, it is intentional killing of an organism that does not have to die. It's not a parasite, as some abortionists claim.

2. "denying" - I'm not denying anyone access to what they deem as medical care. I'm simply stating I'd encourage a victim of either horrid crime (incest/rape) to consider keeping the child. I realize there are those who'd say it'd be a living reminder of the rape - or it would have 'defects' from incest. But I still don't see the need. I have friends who are women, who have aborted foetuses that were known to have life-threatening defects. I don't condemn them for it. Especially since one of them already lost a child to the exact same problem. [her intention was to ensure the next child would not suffer the same]. She is an atheist, so that likely factored into her decision.

 

again "deny a woman" - I'm not against abortion legislation! I'm against the medical procedure - not the people who perform them, or the people who get them. [Although i confess I might judge a woman who has had one without reason]

 

I never said there was a connection between orphans and overpoulation. What I did however suggest was that people adopt orphans rather than breeding themselves. Sorry, I thought that was plain.

 

I don't think oxygen is the problem in so far as valuabale rsources go. The obvious candidate there is fresh water, which is fast running out. Not to speak about food. The list goes on from there. No idea where you came up with the oxygen theory in my post. You mentioned it, not me.

That's an excellent plan, but people should be able to produce offspring and keep their genes alive.

 

With various methods of creating fresh-water, I doubt the developed world will ever run out of it.

 

You say every single fertile man should have children. Population explosion here we come. Here on Shetland we have a huge rabbit problem, because they adhere to that idea.......they take it very seriously indeed. Rabbits that is.

 

I was talking about any available form of contraception, not just the pill.

Glad to know rabbits can breed that well on a cold island lol

 

it's my contention that the pill should be the major form of contraception. I hope, that does not sound misogynist.

 

No suicidal tendencies here, just thinking and planning ahead. But as Doctors obviously no better than me and my emotions, so do you, evidently. Are you a medic, by any chance? Personally I don't trust Doctors as far as I can spit. I prefer to go to the local vets! Fast, efficient, highly sympathetic, the price is right, and if I behave myself I even get a treat and a tickle behind the ears! Oh yes, nearly forgot: they will also put me quick and painlessly to sleep should I become terribly ill.

 

I hope I have covered everything.I however agree with you that we better put this one down to cultural differences. I didn't intend for this to go off topic, and should not have replied to your bait in your first post. Silly me!

 

I reckon I have said everything I wanted to say on the actual topic in hand, and certainly won't be swayed on the matter. Margo's got my vote!

I'm not a medic, not yet anyways.

 

if only Margo had a million of you, she'd win.

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^^^ And next Smart will probably tell us that would be Gods retribution for sinful pride :wink:

G-d & Euthanasia, I don't see the connection? :x

How not? And no need to get mad about it! You have repeatedly used religion in your arguments and the religious texts are oppossed to euthanasia on the whole 'no taking of life' jist.

I don't get the connection with your reply and my response to the previous post...think you may have missed my point :?

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