9/11 conspiracy theories

[JAStewart]

I can't remember if I already talked about this... don't think I did.

 

Anyway, its a 911 documentary which is a definate eye opener and I figure since the release of the pentagon videos a few days ago which was supposed to "prove" that a plane hit the pentagon (which it totally didn't) that I should let everyone have the oppertunity to view this film and comment on it.

 

Y'know that there is a a growing support for the messages in the movie as this can be seen on http://video.google.com/videoranking where the extended version is #1 and the unextended version is #2 and another version is at #26. I would reccomend watching the one at #1 as it fixed almost most errors that were in previous editions.

 

enjoy! this was a total shock/eye opener to me and I hope it has the same effect.

 

Loose Change 911

[Ally]

I'm usually pretty sceptical of "conspiracy theories", and while I'm no fan of the Bush administration it sometimes seems to me that media commentators on the left (Michael Moore, to name but one) often have a tendency to skew the facts and employ clever editing techniques to fit their agenda.

 

However, having watched this documentary I find it quite hard to pick any holes in its presentation. It’s quite fascinating, actually. There’s definitely something behind it methinks… worth a look. Thanks JA.

[Marooned in Maywick]

...and I thought this was a thread about cheap Porsches.

[JAStewart]

I'm usually pretty sceptical of "conspiracy theories", and while I'm no fan of the Bush administration it sometimes seems to me that media commentators on the left (Michael Moore, to name but one) often have a tendency to skew the facts and employ clever editing techniques to fit their agenda.

 

However, having watched this documentary I find I quite hard to pick any holes in its presentation. It’s quite fascinating, actually. There’s definitely something behind it methinks… worth a look. Thanks JA.

 

Yeah I agree with you. Michael Moore's fahrehhiet 911 was brilliant on release, but as you learned more, it wasn't so great and then Loose Change comes along and puts Fahrehiet 911 to SHAME!

 

Watch out for the full blown movie in June/July? I'm not too sure when its released. You should join the active discussion over at the forums www.loosechange911.com

[Njugle]

I can't remember if I already talked about this... don't think I did.

Yes you did Jimmy, touch of the old short term memory loss in action.

JAStewart's previous "Loose Change" thread

 

As other posts have been made here i'll leave it open.

[JustMe]

I cheated and bought 3 of the 911 films on e-bay. Just being lazy about downloading them on my slow broadband connection. Still have to watch them. For what its worth I have always wondered about the Pentagon "attack", about the WTC collapses and about who or what was flying the planes. I am no way convinced about the "hijackers" hitting the towers after limited flight training and I am 100% convinced that no matter what threats were made the planes pilots would have at least "missed" the targets and in my opinion they would have put the planes into a steep dive into the river.

[Evil Inky]

The problem with these conspiracy theories ( in my opinion, anyway ) is the suggestion that the same incompetents responsible for the Iraq quagmire and the woeful response to Hurricane Katrina somehow got away with the following:

 

a) A controlled demolition of both World Trade Centre towers, and WTC 7,

The shooting down of United 93

c) Hitting the Pentagon with a cruise missile

d) Somehow making the plane ( plus all the passengers and crew ) which was supposed to have hit the Pentagon disappear.

 

Put yourself in George Bush's shoes. Would you really risk masterminding a complex conspiracy involving hundreds of people, any one of which could blow the whistle at any time ? Would the benefits really be worth the risk ?

[Ghostrider]

Notwithstanding the holes in the "official" version of the events of 9/11, the even more prolific and far greater holes in the motivation(s) behind, and execution of 9/11 put forward by conspiracy theorists leads me to be far more sceptical of their offerings, than of the "official one. In all liklihood the full truth on every aspect of 9/11 will never be known to anyone, but in the "official" explanation, there is plausible and believable sequence of events. Whether it is an accurate account of the truth or not is a whole other debate, as a significant portion of it relies on circumstancial evidence and supposition. If for no other reason than some of the relevant facts are impossible to prove after the event. Eg. There is evidence that the individuals named as the hijackers boarded those planes, however whether they were all still aboard, and where on board they were in the lead up to impact, or what their actions were during that period, cannot possibly be known, for obvious reasons. That said, IMHO the "official" explanation is something I can easily believe to be what *could* have happened, there are few if any points that you can pick out and say "that's impossible", or "no-one would have done that like that".

 

Conspiracy theorists have put forward alternatives which question what exactly the known material facts are, and how the "official" explanation interprets them. This is only right and fair, no two people see any one "picture" in quite the same way, each individual must reach their own conclusions of what they are viewing, and if they don't see a certain piece of evidence suggests the same as the official explanation says it does they're entitled to put forward their alternative theories with whatever supporting evidence they have to believe it. Such is freedom of speech in practice.

 

Leaving aside what exactly the material facts are, and how they are interpreted, as some of the alternative theories put forward are as plausible and believable in their own right as the "official" one, the point that makes all the conspiracy theories I have as yet come across, fall flat on their faces, is in the offered explanations for motivation(s) and execution of 9/11.

 

To address only one of theories, but one which seems popular among a number conspiracy theorists, the specualtion that 9/11 was an "inside job", in effect elements within the American Goverenment and/or large US business interests stage managed the incident for ulterior motives. While it's reasonable to address this as a possiblility when analysing the bigger picture, IMHO the only reason it has gained and retained the support it has is due more to the global fashion of "American bashing", rather than any credibility in and of itself.

 

IMHO at least, the sheer logistics and practicalities of stageing such a thing, and of keeping it secret that you had for years, is the stuff of fantasy. There were four planes belonging to different airlines, if they were fakes and didn't take off from where is claimed, or didn't have on board what was claimed, wouldn't at least one member of ground staff recall something and speak out. Assume then that they were genuine scheduled flights with passengers as stated, either senior management at those Airlines had to be in on it and going along with it, in which case there's several more people who could spill the beans. Or, if they were kept in the dark, I think they'd be more than irked if they believed the Government did what happened to their plane an passengers, and if enough shareholders in those Airlines believed it had merit too, there would hve been riots over it long ago. Add to that, how make Air Traffic Controllers saw those planes take off, and watched them fly unapproved courses? So as to make sure that happened unhindered, at least senior Air Traffic Control would have to have been in on the deal, so as to make sure any reports were never acted upon, plus to be safe, any Controller who "might" have been able to notice what was on the Radar would need to have been briefed to "forget" any unusual aircraft movements they saw that morning. Add to that the Air Force, senior management had to be in on it too, and what to tell them? Don't have any aircraft in the air over the Eastern US that morning? I don't think so, too risky in case there was a genuine threat that materialised. So you add on the pilots who were up, having to be told to disregard certain aircraft whatever they did.

 

That's quite a crowd of people who could blow the "official" explanation wide open, and I have great difficulty in believing that after 4 1/2 years, at least a number those self same people haven't left that employment in circumstances in which they are bitter towards their former employers, and would happily sing like a canary as "revenge". Most likely a few of them no longer reside in the US, and would have even less reason not to spill all, especially in light of the current level of worldwide anti-American feelings. Where are those people?

[JustMe]

One relatively minor point makes me even bother listening to the conspiracy theories. That is the allegation that Bush "knew" about the twin towers before he was told. Now that dont mean the US government "did it" but perhaps they did nothing to stop it.

[moorit]

 

enjoy! this was a total shock/eye opener to me and I hope it has the same effect.

 

Loose Change 911

 

Do you really believe this tosh JA ?

[JAStewart]

 

enjoy! this was a total shock/eye opener to me and I hope it has the same effect.

 

Loose Change 911

 

Do you really believe this tosh JA ?

 

Indeed I do.

[peeriebryan]

I watched the video out of the corner o my eye last night. It's a bit like the Da Vinci Code of the documentary world. There was quite a few plausable theories and a lot of 'facts' which I was previously unaware. But there was too many leaps of faith and unanswered questions for me to take the conclusions seriously

 

I did wince when they claimed that the planes which hit the twin towers didn't have passengers on them, but in fact the passengers were taken off the plane and are now held captive by the government. The documentary makers made no attempt to consider the logistics of such a cover-up or explain where the passengers are now

 

On the whole, the documentary did raise a few queations, but as with the best conspiracy theories, it raised more questions than provided answers. I'm not convinced, but it did make me think, which can only be a good thing (I don't think very often!)

[Evil Inky]

I did wince when they claimed that the planes which hit the twin towers didn't have passengers on them, but in fact the passengers were taken off the plane and are now held captive by the government. The documentary makers made no attempt to consider the logistics of such a cover-up or explain where the passengers are now

Not to mention the fact that any one of these dozens of passengers ( or any one of the many guards required to look after them ) could potentially give the whole game away: what possible motive could there be for the risk of taking them off the plane and keeping them alive ?

 

In a similiar vein, if the government wanted people to believe that terrorists had crashed a plane into the Pentagon, surely the obvious plan would be to actually crash a plane into the Pentagon, rather than mess around with a cruise missile, and a consequently complicated coverup ?

[moorit]

 

enjoy! this was a total shock/eye opener to me and I hope it has the same effect.

 

Loose Change 911

 

Do you really believe this tosh JA ?

 

Indeed I do.

 

 

You must be one of the guys who are taken in by the 'Nigerian Prince' who sends e-mails asking for your bank account details to transfer his money into your account, and you think it's genuine.

[Mario]

You must be one of the guys who are taken in by the 'Nigerian Prince' who sends e-mails asking for your bank account details to transfer his money into your account, and you think it's genuine.

 

So you're saying I shouldn't have sent him by bank details and address??

 

I watched that Loose Change 9/11 last night. To be honest, ever since I watched the events happen in NYC, I was totally unconvinced that it was anything like the "official" explanation.

 

I truly never believed that the amount of fuel could make those two giant structures topple. Far less in the manner they did. From what I saw, it looked like a planned detonation and everything I saw in that documentary did back it up.

 

Normally I'm not into conspiracy theory but for me, 9/11 stinks of exactly that. Not only do I believe that the towers toppled ridiculously fast but also the plane that crashed into the pentagon clearly was never a plane. The US government's reluctance to release footage of this (which does clearly does exist) only backs this up.

 

As for passengers being kept hostage, I don't believe that at all and I don't think Loose Change ever claims this. I do believe that the flights that hit were not the ones they were thought to have been though.

 

Either way, it's a fantastic documentary - in the sense that it really gets you to think.