A Real Chance for Shetland Home Rule

[GT]

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Scottish skier posts a remarkable lack of knowledge of Scottish and Shetland history and confuses the late medieval with the 400 years of Scots oppression from 16thC Lord of Shetland Robert Stewart onwards through the exploitation, serfdom and clearances imposed by Scots merchants and lairds.

 

Scottish skier should be aware that Grimond’s ZCC Act got through Westminster on the vote of English Tory MPs – the Scottish Office was against the ZCC Act and all the Scottish Labour MPs voted against it.

[MJ]

Exactly, and there's no reason why Shetland school bairns shouldn't learn Chinese too(and I can see why)

 

Because it doesn't exist???

[scottish skier]

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Scottish skier posts a remarkable lack of knowledge of Scottish and Shetland history and confuses the late medieval with the 400 years of Scots oppression from 16thC Lord of Shetland Robert Stewart onwards through the exploitation, serfdom and clearances imposed by Scots merchants and lairds.

 

Scottish skier should be aware that Grimond’s ZCC Act got through Westminster on the vote of English Tory MPs – the Scottish Office was against the ZCC Act and all the Scottish Labour MPs voted against it.

 

I am the first to admit a serious lack of knowledge - this is why I came here asking in the first place. I discovered that quite a few in Shetland were apparently aggrieved against Scotland and I had no idea why. Can you blame me? I imagine there are quite a few on here who are not experts on the history of Lauderdale (where I currently live), or the Spey Valley (where I grew up)?

 

As far as clearances and serfdom goes - the Scotland did not escape these; it suffered greatly too under 'lairds' who cared little for the people of the Highlands and Islands.

 

Scotland has been ruled by Westminster for the past 300 years, so any act carried out by 'Scotland' since 1707 with respect to Sheltand is one derived by Westminster or Unionists linked too westminster (e.g. Scottish Labour MPs) surely? Should the blame for the treatment of Shetland by Scotland not lie with the landowners/elite linked to london who did little for the people of Scotland too? Have you ever heard the term 'a parcel of rogues'? The bain of scotland and seems the same for Shetland too.

 

And most importantly, why do people so often hark on about the past - it can't be changed but the future can.

 

I would say that most Scots are unaware of any anti-scottish feeling that exists in Sheltand and I would not blame them. The scots have suffered under the same problem 'lairds' and have rebelled against control by the elite/westminster many times and voted for devolution/independence in the 70's only to have it refused on a non-demoncratic technicality.

 

Personally, I am a 'non-aggrieved' Scottish Nationalist, i.e. not a 'moaner' nor a 'blamer' about past westminster rule/how England has treated Scotland historically. I regularly post on the politics thread of a forum I'm a member of in support of Scottish Independence, but am strongly against the 'moaning / anti-english' attitude of some hard line nationalists as much as I am against the 'anti-scottish' English people who post about how scotland 'can't survive without them' etc. Doesn't help at all. The only people who can improve Scotland's future are Scots that look to the future and do not dwell on the past. The same applies in Sheltand. If most Shetlanders want change, they can have it, but they're going to need to work together, just as the Scots have finally done in giving such strong support to the SNP.

 

I would say Sheltand should not fear the SNP. I'm not saying shetlanders should vote for them nor by default be controlled by the Scottish Parliament, but the SNP are for the people of Scotland and the people of Scotland do not look down on Sheltand nor wish to control it. This is what saddened me when I read some posts which seemed to be 'anti-scottish'; I was horrified that some of my neighbours held grudges towards me and I had no idea where it stemmed from, if you like. I wanted to know why.

 

I wish the best for shetland and would support what change sheltand voters wished for their future. Given what the SNP/Scots are currently fighting for, I see no reason why the same rights should not be given to the people of Shetland by the Scots Parliament, should Scotland become independent. If Scotland is to be reborn as a nation, I want it to be on good terms with our neighbours in the north (Iceland, Faroes, Shetland, Norway etc); I certainly feel my politics/culture as a highlander is closer to these than England.

 

I have been to Orkney many times as I have distant family friends there. Maybe it's time I visited Sheltand to learn more about it; the Scots and The Shetlanders seem at least to have one thing in common - great pride in their homeland and the wish to not be controlled by another people from afar. And rightly so.

 

Hope this clarifies my position.

 

EDIT. Just read this - a good brief summary for an 'ignorant' Scot?

 

http://www.saxavord.com/history-of-shetland.php

 

Many of the problems described (serfdom, clearances) happened in the Highlands and islands of Scotland too. As for Robert Stewart - he is one person and does not represent the Scots. Scotland has suffered plenty of his Ilk (rich landowners and traders) too.

 

See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Clearances

 

"Crofters became a source of virtually free labour to their landlords, being forced to work long hours in such work as harvesting and processing of kelp"

 

"What became known as the Clearances were considered by the landlords as necessary "improvements"..... Chiefs engaged Lowland, or sometimes English, factors with expertise in more profitable sheep farming, and they "encouraged", sometimes forcibly, the population to move off suitable land."

 

I think Scotland and Shetland have a lot in common. Here's to a bright future for both!

[exciseman]

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is ruled by the monarch and is governed by a democratically elected government so Scotland in fact hasn’t been ‘ruled’ by Westminster or “another people†for the last 300 years. The country we all belong to is The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and Scotland is a self-administering region of that country.

 

As far as history goes it was Westminster that got rid of the heinous Truck system that the Scots and the Scots alone imposed on Shetland. If Scotland had been independent during the Second World War there is no doubt the outcome of that conflict would have been very different.

 

There are so many strategic, economic and social threads binding the UK together that even if it were possible to unpick them, as the fantasist Salmond believes, it would be economic suicide for the region of Scotland. And before we start on about the UK oil revenues - these belong to all the people of the UK. It isn’t Scotland’s oil and it isn’t Shetland’s oil. An independence seeking Scotland would have to negotiate a share of the oil revenues that would certainly be a lot less that it gets from the UK government at the moment.

[MuckleJoannie]

@ Scottish Skier

 

I think you do not understand Shetland's isolation from the rest of the UK. The rest of Scotland may have suffered as badly as here but we probably were not aware of it. When Shetlanders went South it was generaly to go to sea or into service. They would not have had much contact with the rural poor.

 

There is an old saying in Shetland "all that came out of Scotland was dear meal and greedy ministers" We don't want to see those times again.

[scottish skier]

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is ruled by the monarch and is governed by a democratically elected government so Scotland in fact hasn’t been ‘ruled’ by Westminster or “another people†for the last 300 years. The country we all belong to is The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and Scotland is a self-administering region of that country.

 

As far as history goes it was Westminster that got rid of the heinous Truck system that the Scots and the Scots alone imposed on Shetland. If Scotland had been independent during the Second World War there is no doubt the outcome of that conflict would have been very different.

 

There are so many strategic, economic and social threads binding the UK together that even if it were possible to unpick them, as the fantasist Salmond believes, it would be economic suicide for the region of Scotland. And before we start on about the UK oil revenues - these belong to all the people of the UK. It isn’t Scotland’s oil and it isn’t Shetland’s oil. An independence seeking Scotland would have to negotiate a share of the oil revenues that would certainly be a lot less that it gets from the UK government at the moment.

 

Hmm. I believe this is a discussion on what is best government-wise for Shetland, not Scotland, and I hope shetlanders don't mind me trying to learn more and put my perspective as and SNP mainland scot into the discussion.

 

With respect to this, I think you need to remember that 'The United Kingdom of Great Britian and Northern Ireland (and Shetland?)' is not a country per se, but rather a collection of countries currently in parliamentary Union, each with varying degrees of indepedence with respect to languages, laws, customs, culture. Some of these countries were absorbed by England (e.g. Wales), though conquest, some 'voluntarily' (not really, as the scots people did not vote, the landowners did) such as Scotland joined the union. Some regions, like Shetland ended up as part of that Union due to the whims of the elite class without any real say in the matter.

 

Scots rebelled against the union on a number of occasions and were brutally put down. They voted democratically in the 1970's for independence/devolution but were not given it. Scots now have a chance to be indepedent if they wish democratically for the first time (in that Westminster can't really stop it if the Scots vote for it). Time will tell if they do. Shetland now finds itself with an important question - does it remain with the UK or align with and independent Scotland should the latter come to fruition?

 

I'm genuinely supportive of home rule for Sheltand, e.g. like the Isle of Man etc. Shetland needs that due to it's isolation. If that does happen, I would hope that Shetland decides to keep a good association with Scotland due to our close links, but that is up to Shetlanders to decide.

 

As for the oil which always crops up? This is not about oil. While the north sea has good prospects for the next 20-30 years (I work in the industry), it can't form the backbone of either Scotland's or Shetland's economy. This is another thing we share in common and can solve with development of renewables together I hope.

 

As for the war? So you are blaming a fictional independent Scotland in 1939 for losing a war that was never lost? Eh? How is that remotely relevant.

 

@MuckleJoannie. Sorry if shetland has had to suffer some of our ever present 'parcel of rogues' which have blighted scotland through much of its history too.

 

http://www.worldburnsclub.com/poems/translations/a_parcel_of_rogues_in_a_nation.htm

[groilick]

Dir nae difference atween da 'parcel of rogues' dat wis in Scotland dan an da 'parcel of rogues' hits tun ower athin Holyrood eenoo.

 

Guid help wis if Ecky Salmond wins tae heid up a independent Scotland and his golfin pal Teuchter Trump is joost wan phone call awey as President o da USA.

[MuckleJoannie]

They voted democratically in the 1970's for independence/devolution but were not given it.

 

Shetland voted 73% against in 1979

 

http://shetlopedia.com/1979_Devolution_Referendum

[scottish skier]

They voted democratically in the 1970's for independence/devolution but were not given it.

 

Shetland voted 73% against in 1979

 

http://shetlopedia.com/1979_Devolution_Referendum

 

No reason Sheltand should follow the Scots vote!

 

@excisman: The UK only really became a democracy 200 years after Scotland Joined it, finally giving universal suffrage in 1928. My wife's grandmother remembers this, i.e. within living memory. With a new world war looming, Scotland did not focus on using 'democracy' to regain its independence but took the first opportunity 50 years later in 1979 to vote 'yes', which was rejected by westminster 'rule' never used in democracy, i.e. that not voting counts as a 'no'. Then it said yes at the next opportunity for devolution in 1997. Read into the recent 2011 result what you wish.

[scottish skier]

Dir nae difference atween da 'parcel of rogues' dat wis in Scotland dan an da 'parcel of rogues' hits tun ower athin Holyrood eenoo.

 

Guid help wis if Ecky Salmond wins tae heid up a independent Scotland and his golfin pal Teuchter Trump is joost wan phone call awey as President o da USA.

 

A fair point on both counts. If you guys consider the current scots MSPs in the same light (we scots don't as we voted them in under PR), then you need to set up a 'Sheltand' party which puts Shetland first.

 

I'm not partial to all of Alex Slamonds policies or his golfing mates, but as a Scot, voting for a party which wants the best for where I live is a no brainer.

 

EDIT. I'd be interested to know if the average Englishman or Norwegian could understand what you said as easily as a Scot.

[George.]

That is a very valid point Scottish skier. We need to set up a Shetland Party, a party that lookks out solely for the benefits of Shetland. Where's Billy Fox when we need him

[scottish skier]

That is a very valid point Scottish skier. We need to set up a Shetland Party, a party that lookks out solely for the benefits of Shetland. Where's Billy Fox when we need him

 

With only 22,000 of you guys (less than half the capcity of Hampden), running a small referendum on 'where do we go next / should be set up a Shetland party' etc should not need government help. You could do it yourselves and see where it leads.

 

Certainly, if Scotland goes independent, I imagine Westminster will look at holding onto Shetland. Likewise, the Scots will be making offers too. You will hold quite an ace given your current position in the heart of the north sea industry.

 

Scottish people are finally 'getting up of their butts and doing something about it', Shetlanders should too. Go for the SNP (Shetland National Party).

 

And thanks for all the responses so far. Very interesting learning people's views up there!

[exciseman]

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A Shetland independence party called the Shetland Movement has been tried in the recent past and was totally rejected by voters – indeed much of Shetland’s present SIC turmoil and catalogue of financial disasters is principally due to individuals from that movement.

Shetland is and will be much better off remaining part of the UK with or without the Scots.

[scottish skier]

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A Shetland independence party called the Shetland Movement has been tried in the recent past and was totally rejected by voters – indeed much of Shetland’s present SIC turmoil and catalogue of financial disasters is principally due to individuals from that movement.

Shetland is and will be much better off remaining part of the UK with or without the Scots.

 

A pity to hear that, however such things don't always work first time. The SNP has been around for a long time in various forms, but only in the past decade has become a real party which Scots see as fit to govern Scotland.

 

What is best for Shetland is what Sheltand decides. I certainly don't think Scotland should decide what is best for Shetland, but Scotland would welcome continued close ties if Sheltanders wanted it.

 

Either way, relations will inevitably be 'closer' with Scotland than the remainder of the UK on a daily basis given the proximity and mutual interests (shared NS industry/infrastructure, fishing, travel to and from the isles, tourism etc).

 

This is of course assuming Scotland does become independent. While the choice is now in the hands of the Scots, it is not set in stone!

 

Or Shetland could team up with Norway. I love the Norwegian system and would prefer a United Kingdom of Scotland, Shetland and Norway' over the current set-up! Now that would be something! Pity the beer is so expensive

[exciseman]

As I understand it the Scottish Regional Assembly can only hold a referendum to ask for a mandate for the Scottish government to negotiate terms for Scotland to leave the United Kingdom. If that referendum is won and suitable terms negotiated, then there will have to be a another referendum (called by Westminster) to see if those terms are agreeable to the populace before Scotland can leave the UK.

 

Where Shetland sits in all of this is a moot point. Also lets not assume that Norway would wish to to take on responsibility for Shetland.