A Real Chance for Shetland Home Rule

[EM]

She'll be telling wis that the bagpipes are a beautiful sound next...

The Scottish pipes are surely unique amongst the many regional variants, in being a weapon of war rather than a musical instrument.

[deardron]

This discussion made me recall a comment from YouTube by a 18-19 yo girl from Shetland:

 

Most of us Shetland people still speak Norwegian words... most of them arent spelt the same, but sound the same & mean the same thing!

When People ask me where im from i'll say Shetland & if they ask where its at i say north of Scotland... I would never say im Scottish! not that i have a problem with Scottish people but i just dont feel Scottish.

 

It's up to you to decide how representative her opinion is

[Kavi Ugl]

Yes, I'd heard about the Jewish connection too

 

I suppose what this means is that the name Wiseman/Weisemann isn't even Scottish - it's German!.

 

Now then, I'll have to find a proper thread for this but what's Goodlad?. I've heard that it's Dutch?.

[Ghostrider]

She'll be telling wis that the bagpipes are a beautiful sound next...

The Scottish pipes are surely unique amongst the many regional variants, in being a weapon of war rather than a musical instrument.

 

With one exception, IMHO, whenever the Dropkick Murphys get going with them. ie.

 

 

Okay, up to 0.42 is pretty sh*tfaced miserable, but then it gets going.

[Ghostrider]

Now then, I'll have to find a proper thread for this but what's Goodlad?. I've heard that it's Dutch?.

 

Don't know the nationality, but it should be spelled as its said in Shetland, ie. Goudlet. "Goodlad" is just another infernal invaders invention. Same as Poplar, Henderson and probably many more.

[DePooperit]

This is a very interesting topic but I have to admit to being confused about the concern over the use or otherwise of the Shetland language in schools.

 

It is my understanding that the Shetland language is seen as a dialect or regional variation of Scot's English and as a result in effect a dialect of proper English. If that is the case then not being able to use it in schools is exactly the same as across the rest of the UK. I would never have got away with using any of my local dialect words in school. No use of the words wee or windae for me.

 

Or am I missing something?

 

Apologies in advance if this has caused any offence.

 

Best idea here would be to go to the Shetland's Spoken and Written Form (or something like that) part of the forum, and read all (!) the posts there! You may have to sign up with the mods for access to this part of the forum? (I'm not sure.)

 

Very briefly, what you say about how the Shetland language is perceived is essentially true, but that is no longer necessarily regarded as a reason for it not being used in school.

[DePooperit]

Now then, I'll have to find a proper thread for this but what's Goodlad?. I've heard that it's Dutch?.

 

Don't know the nationality, but it should be spelled as its said in Shetland, ie. Goudlet. "Goodlad" is just another infernal invaders invention. Same as Poplar, Henderson and probably many more.

 

Guilet/Göllit where I come from.

 

Names being written down wrongly isn't uncommon. Some of my ancestors were recorded as Tourville - ie, Tirval from Thorvald.

[DePooperit]

 

The phenomenon of the dissonance between 'Scottishness' and 'Shetlandness' is interesting. When at school in Lerwick in the seventies I was sometimes called a 'plastic Sheltie' by the other bairns in my class (one of my grandmothers was a 'Lerrick Scottie', a Wiseman by surname). 'Plastic Sheltie' and 'Lerrick Scottie' were both terms of abuse.

 

The Lerrick Scotties, at one time, were a (virtually ghettoised) group of islanders of North-East Scottish origins who lived in the North Road area of Lerwick (interestingly, when some of the descendants of this group get together today, they will swap from using Shaetlan and speak Doric). They were definitely not seen as Shetlanders by other islanders, most of whom looked down on them in what would today be termed a 'racist' manner.

Intermarriage with Shetlanders happened, but I know for a fact not without prejudice. My father's old and established Shetland family were dismayed when he married my mother, a poor 'Lerrick Scottie'.

The story of the Lerrick Scotties would be mannah for the anthropologist/ethnographer, although I fear memories might still be too raw, and Shetland too small to write about it.

 

From this angle, the fading distinctions between 'Scottish' and 'Shetlander' are, to my mind, a good thing. The loss of the familiar Shetland ways I grew up with, though, are a sad thing.

 

I wonder how much of the prejudice against Lerwick Scotties was a Lerwick phenomenon? I remember hearing quite a lot about 'Scotties' - ie, incomers from Scotland, Lerwick and otherwise (there were some in Scalloway too) without being conscious of any prejudice against them. But then maybe you wouldn't if you weren't one.

 

I'm not sure that the fading of the distinctions between 'Scottish' and 'Shetlander' is necessarily a good thing from the point of view of prejudice. Even if you get rid of old distinctions, there will always be some other distinction that those with a mind to be prejudiced will latch on to. Young people form their own distinctions - tribes - where there weren't any before. The real breakthrough is to do away with prejudice in spite of distinctions.

 

There were prejudices within 'traditional' Shetland too. of course. There were fights, or at least the threat of fights, between the Sooth and Nort End of Burra - the demarkation point apparently being Da Boyne Grinnd - and at one time it was said to be unwise to go to a Scalloway dance without a cycle chain in your pocket. I was at a 'do' some years ago where a member of the band commented that it was some time since he'd played in the Scalloway hall, and the first time there hadn't been a fight. There were fights between Toon and Hostel boys in my day, in addition to the Toon Hards who went around in a gang picking fights. The Hostel was a hotbed of persecution and forms of bullying which would probably qualify as torture under the Geneva convention. I have no rose-tinted memories of some ideal Shetland before oil and modernity ruined it all. But those who wish to persecute others will find some excuse to do so anyway, if society as a whole allows them to do so.

[MuckleJoannie]

@Malachy, I can assure you that I can remember the conversation and STimes article to this day!. And I can even remeber the surname of the athlete in question but obviously won't quote it for privacy sake.

 

 

I have a vague recollection of seeing something similar, but I put it down to the reporter having only recently arrived in Shetland.

[crofter]

The Hostel was a hotbed of persecution and forms of bullying which would probably qualify as torture.

 

I always felt that CB was a cruel and unusual punishment.

[DePooperit]

Perhaps another way of looking at this is the way that identity is created in opposition to other identities, or as an extension to them. So I think what is being described as the more usual view of older people was that they were Shetlanders as opposed to being Scottish; whereas now I suspect a lot of young people would see themselves as being Shetlanders, then Scottish/British/European/Christian/Scandinavian/whatever. So it's not necessarily that the Shetland part of the identity has changed, merely that is has changed in terms of its relationship to other identities, particularly Scottishness.

I would say 'is changing' rather than 'has changed', remembering that this (or rather, this part of the) discussion originated in an attempt to explain to Scottish Skier the current lack of SNP support in Shetland, which I suggested depended on recognising the traditional non-Scottish view in Shetland - which many Scots will never have heard of.

 

I think that your explanation of the focus of Shetland identity is quite right. However, I would argue that if the relationship of the Shetland identity to other identities has changed, then that means that the identity itself has changed. This is implicit in your comment that 'identity is created in opposition to other identities, or as an extension to them.'

 

When I first came to Shetland there was a lot of anti-Englishness in school, which wasn't very helpful for me arriving with an English accent. I suspect that a generation or two earlier anti-Scottishness would have been just as prevalent. So at some point the idea of who is not us had altered.

 

This, I think, must be true. I'm not sure that anti-Scottishness would have been prevalent earlier, however - as far as I can remember, both English and Scottish tended to be bundled together as 'Sooth.' I don't remember the designation 'Scottie' being applied to English-speaking people who came from Scotland rather than England, or to Gaels or Highlanders - who would probably have been called 'teuchters' - but rather to Scots speakers from the North East - where I now live. And I don't remember the 'dear meal and bad ministers' attitude being applied to individuals, either, although of course I can by definition only remember what I came across.

 

Children, of course, will seize upon any excuse to define outsiders - as I am fully aware, having grown up half a mile outside a village - so the attitudes of children may not necessarily reflect those of their parents' generation. If there was a particular emphasis on anti-Englishness, I think it's possible that this was in itself an indicator of a more Scottish attitude creeping in - a redefinition of who is 'not us', as you say.

 

Did you encounter this in the country, or in Lerwick, I wonder?

 

 

I'm afraid it's no surprise to me that the STimes would label someone as Scottish:(. The last editor of the ST just regarded Shetlanders as scots - period. And she still waffles that mantra in her Shetland Life column.

It doesn't surprise me either. The reason it's interesting is that it suggests that Shetland does not have, and has never had, a public voice that reflected common perceptions.

 

Well I found it surprising. Kavi Ugl's description sounded unconvincing, unless the athlete was competing as part of a Scottish team (as some Shetland sports folk do), in which case it might be appropriate. However, I don't think it would be usual practice, and in my view it would be mistaken. Kavi's characterisation of Vaila Wishart's opinions is also unconvincing. I'm not going to speak for her obviously, but I don't recall any SL column in which she expressed a view so blunt and simplistic, and I certainly don't ever remember her waffling.

 

Irrespective of Kavi Ugl's choice of words, I still think that my point - that the Shetland media has probably never reflected common perceptions - is true.

 

A throwaway comment on the Wishart family is that they were amongst the very few in my school generation who habitually spoke standard English. I don't want to get onto any of my particular hobby horses here, as I'll just get us shunted into the 'Written and Spoken Form' (WSF?) area where all discussion fizzles out, but I still maintain that attitude towards language/dialect is a very important aspect of the changing Shetland identity, without which Shetland voting patterns, and attitudes pertaining to the Original Poster's comments regarding Home Rule and related matters, cannot be understood.

[Shasel]

A throwaway comment on the Wishart family is that they were amongst the very few in my school generation who habitually spoke standard English. I don't want to get onto any of my particular hobby horses here, as I'll just get us shunted into the 'Written and Spoken Form' (WSF?) area where all discussion fizzles out, but I still maintain that attitude towards language/dialect is a very important aspect of the changing Shetland identity, without which Shetland voting patterns, and attitudes pertaining to the Original Poster's comments regarding Home Rule and related matters, cannot be understood.

 

Why is it so important? Scotland has itself its own regional dialects but people do not seen so hung up on being able to use them in an educational context. Not being able to speak and write 'weegie' never made me feel less scottish and I do have to wonder why you think it should. Surely the Shetland identity is based on more than being able to speak and write in dialect?

[joenorth]

There were prejudices within 'traditional' Shetland too. of course. There were fights, or at least the threat of fights, between the Sooth and Nort End of Burra - the demarkation point apparently being Da Boyne Grinnd - and at one time it was said to be unwise to go to a Scalloway dance without a cycle chain in your pocket.

 

Yes, I remember various 'inter-region' punch-ups at country dances. More or less a weekly occurrence. The need to set up boundaries between people certainly was (still is)? a part of 'traditional' Shetland. My Dad (a Bigton man) was horrified when I bought a house in Sandwick in the very early noughties, commenting in all seriousness 'de'll nivver spikk ta dee if du goes dere, boy- dat Sandwick fokk is aafil prood'.

 

However, this should be seen as 'inter-tribal': conflict between parties of equal means. Such traditional conflict was never characterised by prejudice levelled by the majority population at a minority population (who were culturally different from all other Shetlanders). Imbalances in power suffuse such interactions, and this is what makes them different. This is what the case of the Lerrick Scotties is about. They possessed all the characteristics of an immigrant ethnic minority population group.

 

Yes, the ills that affect us personally are the ones we are likely to be most acutely conscious of, and the ones most likely to become hobby-horses. As a 'part-Scottie', and growing up on the fringes of that community, I was well aware of the prejudices of other Shetlanders. I know my mother and her extended family had a much worse time in 1940s Shetland.

 

So, to me, one less such prejudice fading into the past can only be a good thing.

 

I'm not sure any exposition of institutionalised prejudice in recent Shetland history would be welcomed by Shetlanders themselves, though. As I said, too recent!

[joenorth]

A throwaway comment on the Wishart family is that they were amongst the very few in my school generation who habitually spoke standard English. I don't want to get onto any of my particular hobby horses here, as I'll just get us shunted into the 'Written and Spoken Form' (WSF?) area where all discussion fizzles out, but I still maintain that attitude towards language/dialect is a very important aspect of the changing Shetland identity, without which Shetland voting patterns, and attitudes pertaining to the Original Poster's comments regarding Home Rule and related matters, cannot be understood.

 

Why is it so important? Scotland has itself its own regional dialects but people do not seen so hung up on being able to use them in an educational context. Not being able to speak and write 'weegie' never made me feel less scottish and I do have to wonder why you think it should. Surely the Shetland identity is based on more than being able to speak and write in dialect?

 

Other than skin colour, language is perhaps the most immediate marker of difference between humans. National/cultural identity is therefore tightly bound to language. If I feel I'm different from other people in Scotland, one of the most effective ways I can show that is to use my native tongue.

 

You've answered your own question. If you wanted to show you were from Glasgow, you could speak 'weegie'. If you don't, as far as anyone else can see, you're just another white Scot, like the 'knappin' Shetlander (a Shetlander who uses standard English).

[Shasel]

Other than skin colour, language is perhaps the most immediate marker of difference between humans. National/cultural identity is therefore tightly bound to language. If I feel I'm different from other people in Scotland, one of the most effective ways I can show that is to use my native tongue.

 

You've answered your own question. If you wanted to show you were from Glasgow, you could speak 'weegie'. If you don't, as far as anyone else can see, you're just another white Scot, like the 'knappin' Shetlander (a Shetlander who uses standard English).

 

I agree that language is a way of separating folk but why would this need to be done in an educational environment? In education you are trying to prepare children for life in the outside world and like it or not that is possibly not just within Shetland. Standard English is, well standard so surely to best prepare young folk it is only right and proper they are encouraged to use it?

 

I guess your second paragraph is the bit I do not understand. Nobody as far as I am aware is telling you that you cannot speak in your own dialect. What has happened is that it has been deemed more appropriate to be taught in standard English which is the case across the UK. What are you losing by not being taught in dialect?

 

It also begs the question why draw the line in the sand here? Why not revert to Norn? All dialects are funny mobile beasts. how can you be sure at what point it should stop moving? Is your version of Shetland dialect the same as the one spoken 100 years ago? Does that make yours any less valid? What if the generation that follows you has a dialect much closer to standard English? What makes that wrong?