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Briefly, the traditional Shetland position was that Shetlanders were not Scottish.

 

here was in the past less explicit class division in Shetland than in most of the UK,

 

very minor quibbles wi whit is idderweys an excellent post:

 

you need ta define whit period 'traditional' relates tae. I wid love ta keen whin dis idea o Shetland no bein Scottish originated. An wha it originated wi. 'Traditions' generally starts wi someen inventin dem, at some specific time!

 

and ageen class division wisna maybe a big thing ida mid 20th century, but it sure as taxes and daeth wis id a mid 19th century!

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Of course, Shetland is a part of geopolitical Scotland. All the same, the idea of 'not being Scottish' exists in the minds of many islanders. Line up a dozen (middle-aged and above) islanders and see how many of them say they feel Scottish. I'd bet you a dozen red cans that not many of them would.

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Briefly, the traditional Shetland position was that Shetlanders were not Scottish.

 

here was in the past less explicit class division in Shetland than in most of the UK,

 

very minor quibbles wi whit is idderweys an excellent post:

 

you need ta define whit period 'traditional' relates tae. I wid love ta keen whin dis idea o Shetland no bein Scottish originated. An wha it originated wi. 'Traditions' generally starts wi someen inventin dem, at some specific time!

 

and ageen class division wisna maybe a big thing ida mid 20th century, but it sure as taxes and daeth wis id a mid 19th century!

 

Ower weel, lat me see noo. Bi 'traditional' I wis meanin my faider's generation. I wis kinda assumin at, if dey - maestly - tocht at dey wirna Scottish, dan hit wis mair as laekly at dat view wid a come doon fae generations afore dem - I canna see at hit wid a been med up mair laetly.

 

Whaarby, as du says, 'traditions' micht start wi somene makkin dem up, dat's no ey da kaese (at you can fin oot aboot, onywye) an even whin hit is, hit's no ey aa med up. Tak Up Helly Aa - as hit is noo, hit's aesy seen as a affcome o da general Breetish 19th Century obsession wi Vikings an dat - in idder wirds, da Up Helly Aa at we kaen, I wid traep, is no raelly a Nordic or even a Shaetlan tradeetion, bit a example o whaar Shaetlan is followed da cultural mores o Breetain as a hael at dat time. Hoosumever, da Up Helly Aa foy ey existit (weel, as far back as onyene can kaen, I doot) an dae wir been some kind o a onkerry danaboot for lang eneoch, as far as I can gadder. Wis da 'offeecial' Up Helly Aa no inventit ta hinder fock fae gaein trow da toon wi burnin barrels settin things alowe?

 

So dan, whaarby 19th Century romanticism micht a played a pairt i da formulation o da idee at Shaetlan wisna Scottish - bringin in history an dat - I still tink at hit biggit apon whit oardinary fock tocht. An I tink at da thing at shaas you dat maest is da language. Spaekin aboot Scotland as if hit wis a different plaece couldna, I dunna tink, a been inventit - hit mosst a been juist whit fock tocht ithoot ony theorisin. I wid tink at maest fock at spak aboot Scotland as a different plaece nedder kent or cared aboot Earl Patrick Stewart or ony o dat, an certainly tocht on demsels as Breetish, no Scandinavian. So I wid tink at dis idee wid gaeng richt back ta afore Shaetland becam offeecially pairt o Scotland. I dunna tink hit's laekly at hit wis ever med up bi onybody in parteecular.

 

Bit maybe da important thing aboot dat is no sae muckle at Shaetlan fock didna tink demsels ta be Scottish as at dey did tink demsels ta be Shaetlan. If you wir Shaetlan, an Shaetlan an Scotland wis baith pairt o da UK, no bein Scottish maybe widna a seemed laek da 'big dael' at hit seems noo, an widna a needit ta be explened. Da need for hit needin ta be explened (!) comes, I wid say, fae a ootside wye o lookin at things - a wye o lookin at tinks at dis view is odd, whaarby ta Shaetlan fock danadays hit seemed naitural.

 

As far as class diveesions gaengs, I'm tinkin aboot da kind o Shaetlan community at I grew up in i da 20th Century. In England ony country community is laekly ta hae a 'tap layer' o fock at spaeks wi a Public School (maybe noo Estuary?) accent, an in Scotland dae'r aften a layer o fock at spaeks standard English - whidder dey'r fae da business an professional class at maks up aa da committees an dat, or ootricht toffs. In a typical Shaetlan community dis wisna da kaese ava - tho dae wir toffs an dat in Shaetlan, in a sma community aabody except da doctor/nurse, minister an maybe da teacher spak Shaetlan an wis muckle da sam.

 

I wid jalouse, tho, at da mair fock 'bettered' demsels, da mair dey wid a come ta tink at da tradeetional view at Shaetlan wisna Scottish wis silly. In idder wirds, I'm traepin at, redder as bein a inventit idee, dis wis da defaat view, an da new view - if dae raelly ir a view, an no juist want o a view - is a change fae dat view.

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Very funny, laughable but for the actual thought that they lead the country!

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/hi/scotland/newsid_9494000/9494227.stm

 

This is more like it and what i was saying, legend. even if he is the puppet at the top he would not do anything that is called "spin" true to his words he is aiming for this. But what i like most is the fact that he is not ignorant to other countries and other policies.

 

Scottish first and foremost, and always will be. as i am under 40!! I do correct people alot as i live in a foreign country and am always greeted with a warm smile when i say so. Shetland is not on most peoples radar until i talk about wool, ponies, oil, weatehr and someone even mentioned to me the braer disaster? How THEY remembered that i will never know! as they are not in the oil industry or shipping!

 

Also skiing is possibly(incest :-)) the only link. but i like to ski in a kilt. and it always gets smiles.

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Did anybody else see Tavish Scott's column in last week's Shetland Times?.

 

He actually says that Shetlanders need to use this SNP Scottish Independance referendum to decide what Shetland itself wants to do.

 

If you have a copy of last week's STimes it's worth reading.

 

I still feel that we should go back to Norway and I remember a very wise observation from Malachy Tallack in an editorial of Shetland Life just after the opening of the new Shetland Museum.

 

As you'll remember it was opened by Queen Sonja of Norway and Prince Charles and Camilla. He mentioned that there appeared to be almost disdain towards Charles and Camilla but a warm(er) welcome for Queen Sonja, or in other words C+C weren't welcome but Queen Sonja was!.

 

I've maybe mentioned this but Shetland going back to Norway is no more monumental than Scotland going independant.

 

In relation to the issue of Scottishness, the reason why succeeding/younger generations of Shetlanders have more sympathy towards being Scottish and part of Scotland is simply because the bairns are having it rammed down their throats at school and it's all we ever hear in the media.

 

It's called brainwashing!.

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He mentioned that there appeared to be almost disdain towards Charles and Camilla but a warm(er) welcome for Queen Sonja, or in other words C+C weren't welcome but Queen Sonja was!.

 

I don't think you can read from that particular example that Shetland wants to join Norway, if Josef Fritzl rolled up with that two he would have likely gotten a warmer reception as well, they've never been the most popular of Royals.

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In relation to the issue of Scottishness, the reason why succeeding/younger generations of Shetlanders have more sympathy towards being Scottish and part of Scotland is simply because the bairns are having it rammed down their throats at school and it's all we ever hear in the media.

 

It's called brainwashing!.

 

 

Why would the Scots want to 'brainwash' Shetlanders? They're not still after our crofts after all these years, are they? They won't make much money from my one! Or are they worried about a breakaway Shetland claiming all that lovely oil...?

 

It's got nothing to do with brainwashing, and everything to do with Shetland being much less isolated in terms of cultural influences than ever before, old lifestyles disappearing, and an apathy towards maintaining (as opposed to preserving) our unique cultural markers (such as speech forms).

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I'm afraid I disagree and feel that there has been and definately is a lot of brainwashing. Brainwashing might be a strong word to use but, as an example, what else would one call being forbidden from speaking Shetland and told to "speak proper" in the classroom as?. Does Shetland or Norway's history have prominence in Shetland schools?. No, it's Scotland and England's!.

 

Your other points are valid though and apathy by Shetlanders is equally at fault and I've often wondered why there's so much apathy.

 

An editorial of Shetland life might not speak for every Shetlander but I felt it was a very salient observation.

 

There's no reason why returning to Norway can't be an option in a referendum - if folk don't vote for it that's fine. At least it was given its place in the democratic process.

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De vara gue tee,

when sone min guid to Kadanes:

han can caa rossa mare,

han can caa big here,

han can caa eld fire,

han can caa klovandi taings.

 

I am still trying to work out the NET benefit of surrendering to the control of another foreign power. The Danes handed Shetland over, yup, the nitty gritty may be without approval of the council.

 

But it seems that Shetland is pushed about by a minority. Or has done in the past. Then there are the victors tales, which we know believe.

 

It would be a huge task to undertake, and folk who are with the Church of Scotland may want to be involved, their services are written in the Scottish tongue.

 

If folk want the "good ole days" as said, they will remember the better parts, or some may not have had to struggle at all.

 

It may continue the tourist theme but I think it may not be adopted, though it is good to think and talk about it.

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I'm afraid I disagree and feel that there has been and definately is a lot of brainwashing. Brainwashing might be a strong word to use but, as an example, what else would one call being forbidden from speaking Shetland and told to "speak proper" in the classroom as?. Does Shetland or Norway's history have prominence in Shetland schools?. No, it's Scotland and England's!.

 

Your other points are valid though and apathy by Shetlanders is equally at fault and I've often wondered why there's so much apathy.

 

An editorial of Shetland life might not speak for every Shetlander but I felt it was a very salient observation.

 

There's no reason why returning to Norway can't be an option in a referendum - if folk don't vote for it that's fine. At least it was given its place in the democratic process.

 

I agree with almost all of joenorth's points above (as can be seen from us independently picking up on the same two points in Malachy's post)

 

The example of being told to 'speak proper' in the classroom is vulnerable to the same critique as the view that Shetland was persecuted by Scotland - as noted by Scottish skier, Scots were persecuted by other Scots as well. It just happened that, in Shetland's case, most of the persecuters were Scottish (ie, from mainland Scotland which was seen as a different place) and most of the persecuted Shetlanders. In the Highlands, the persecuters were seen as Lowlanders - gaels have a saying that translates to 'The great ill-will of the Lowlander.'

 

The Shetland tongue is no different from Scots in having been forbidden within an educational context. The recent controversy in the Scalloway school thread shows that mainstream attitudes haven't really improved in this respect - it's still widely regarded as unsuitable in written form if used for 'serious' subjects.

 

As regards brainwashing, this is certainly far too strong a term. It is true, however, that mainstream education in Shetland - and to a large extent Scotland too, although the actual educational system is different - has always been mainstream UK education, which means that the more educated you are, the more likely you are to adopt a mainstream UK viewpoint.

 

However, with Norway as with Norn, I regard the Nordic emphasis as a distraction from the fact that Shetland had an identity and tongue of its own. Focussing on Norn conveniently distracts attention from the (still, just) living tongue to a dead one, and talk of alignment with Norway distracts attention from the actual view (again, still just alive) of Shetland identity to one which, although possible in theory, is, as I said before, fantasmagorical in practice. As well as being a distraction from the actual tongue and identity, it serves as a convenient target for caricature by the mainstream intelligentsia.

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The example of being told to 'speak proper' in the classroom is vulnerable to the same critique as the view that Shetland was persecuted by Scotland - as noted by Scottish skier, Scots were persecuted by other Scots as well.

 

Been following for a wee while. Some very interesting posts. I don't think I've 'got the wrong impression' (as suggested by some) but rather I hope I forming a better one than I had. It has certainly been enlightening to discover that some people in Sheltand seemed to view the Scots as the Scots have viewed the English in times gone by. I was quite taken aback as I never knew this!

 

In terms of persecution - Scots have had plenty of that, e.g. banning of tartan/highland dress, playing of the bagpipes etc after the rising in 1745. We were told we needed to speak 'proper English' too; that's what was taught in Schools and why many Scots speak primarily english with some relic scots thrown in. Interestingly enough, most can still understand/speak scots and related dialects (e.g. such as used in Shetland / I've seen on here), they are just not sure how to write it! So, if anyone is to blame for the demise of local dialects in Shetland, it is the UK education system focus on English. Note were not taught Scottish history either - history began with the empire and WWW's, nothing pre-union the norm in Schools. Half of Scots probably did not know who William Wallace was until Mel Gibson told us.

 

In terms of the future, I would caution Shetlanders not to look at Scotland of the past few hundred years as any reflection on what it might be like under independence. Scotland has not been 'Scotland' since the union, but rather a province of Greater England. Many have been led up the garden path into thinking they lived in a democracy and Scots votes counted/influenced results in westminster, but how could that ever be the case when Scotland makes up only ~8% of the UK population. If you look at historic election results you can remove the entire Scots vote and on most occasions and winning party is the same. England chooses the government in the main. We just have people voting labour, labour winning and that makes them think they helped!

 

Even with the inception of the Scottish parliament this did not change: There is no such thing as 'Scottish Labour', just 'North British Labour' etc.

 

The Scots have finally woken up to this. They'll still vote labour in the main when it comes to general elections (no need to vote SNP there now) in an attempt to stuff the Tories, but they know if they want change, then it is the Scots parliament that will give them that; westminster offers nothing. This is what happened last month.

 

If Scotland votes for independence, which I think is a very real possibility (they voted for some form of home rule 1979 and again in 1997) the Scots people will decide who rules them for the first time in history. Shetland will then find itself looking at a very different Scotland; one it has never known.

 

If you vote liberal, which many in Sheltand do, then I would ask why remain in the UK which will give you a tory or labour government (likely Tory for a while as once they are in, they have a history of being in for a while)? I'd have thought a liberal, social democrat Scotland might be more attractive than that and I would be a better choice for negotiating more 'home rule' given the intricate links between Sheltand and mainlaind Scotland?

 

I guess those who came from Scotland to Shetland would want to be linkec too/part of Scotland. Those who came from England/wales would prefer an affinity with the UK. Those who have nordic ancestry look fondly on the idea of rejoining Norway.

 

Right now I feel I'm living in a dream - one where the Scots finally govern themselves. Part of me says it can't happen as I'm so used to the status quo. However, search all the forums talking about the subject and it is difficult to find many scots who don't want it. The labour old guard is dying, the libs signed their own death warrant by getting into bed with the tories and young scots are reading up on the unternet and coming to the conclusion that their parents did not have the opportunity too, i.e. 'we've been had'. I believe scotland will say 'yes'.

 

I guess Sheltanders need to think and think quickly as to whether they want to join us in making history, obviously with their own wee 'T&C's'. :D

 

Sorry for the long post!

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That post nearly comes across as a threat join us forward thinking scots or else.

 

No threats. We're not going to send Alex salmonds love child up there anyway!

 

What I mean is a referendum is only 4-5 years away. There appears to be a lot of varied opinion as to what is best in Shetland. If shetlanders don't make up their minds in a united way, they may not get what they want.

 

My guess is, as Shetland is historically - whatever the circumstances and by no fault of any Scot alive - part of Scotland, geologically, geographically and politically, it'll end up as part of an independent Scotland. It could remain part of the UK, but sheltanders would need to say that in a big way as Westminster could not try to 'keep' Shetland without that strong support from Shetlanders.

 

EDIT - maybe I'm confused by your post and it read it wrongly so changed post.

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