A Real Chance for Shetland Home Rule

[George.]

 

I agree that language is a way of separating folk but why would this need to be done in an educational environment? In education you are trying to prepare children for life in the outside world and like it or not that is possibly not just within Shetland. Standard English is, well standard so surely to best prepare young folk it is only right and proper they are encouraged to use it?

 

 

Why take the inheritance from the Shetlandic people, why inflict someone else's language upon them, and in effect, take Shetland from the Shetlanders???

 

Oh, and talking about the English language, it is not "well standard". To argue for the English language to be inflicted on anyone, it is advisable to be aware of its grammar.

[JohanofNess]

Your not talking about the native americans here, Shetlanders speak english already. In an educational environment to create a level playing field for all standard english is perfectly acceptable, it's not killed off local dialects on the mainland.

[joenorth]

I guess your second paragraph is the bit I do not understand. Nobody as far as I am aware is telling you that you cannot speak in your own dialect. What has happened is that it has been deemed more appropriate to be taught in standard English which is the case across the UK. What are you losing by not being taught in dialect?

 

It also begs the question why draw the line in the sand here? Why not revert to Norn? All dialects are funny mobile beasts. how can you be sure at what point it should stop moving? Is your version of Shetland dialect the same as the one spoken 100 years ago? Does that make yours any less valid? What if the generation that follows you has a dialect much closer to standard English? What makes that wrong?

 

Thing is, Shasel, islanders of my age grew up in an environment where all educationalists told us we could not speak our own tongue, and the usual admonishment was 'speak properly boy', so we might be a bit touchy on the subject.

 

What we are losing by not being taught 'dialect' is the language itself (and some would thereby say the culture). Shetland 'dialect' speakers are effectively bilingual (as Cohen says in his 1980's anthropology of Whalsay), and where formal attempts to teach other British languages like Gaelic and Welsh exist, no comparable efforts exist here.

 

Certainly, proficiency in standard English is important. My Shetland cultural identity is also important to me, though. Why should one exclude the other? Why should my expertise in English suffocate my knowledge of Shaetlan? To imply that it should smacks of cultural imperialism.

 

Of course languages change with time-who suggested that they did not?

Language extinction is a wholly different thing, though, and that's what's happening here.

 

I'm not sure where your focus on a separate 'educational' context comes from. Surely if most Shetlanders are educated here and go on to live here it would be quite practical for them to maintain the speech forms of their forebears (as well as speaking decent standard English for their shopping trips to Aberdeen). What's that- Aberdonians don't speak English either? Oh bloody hell!

[JohanofNess]

In Aberdeenshire there were initiatives to promote the use of Doric and it was encouraged to such an extent it became part of our English classes, can't see a reason why Shetland doesn't do the same. I also don't see why it means sacrificing a standard curriculum because we still managed to get modules on Doric while following the standard curriculum.

[Ghostrider]

....Nobody as far as I am aware is telling you that you cannot speak in your own dialect. What has happened is that it has been deemed more appropriate to be taught in standard English which is the case across the UK. What are you losing by not being taught in dialect?

 

The educational system, media etc have done a pretty good job in making the Shetland tongue effectively a "second rate" and "looked down upon" form of speech for over 100 years, but they have only been continuing the work started by their Scots etc predecessors of several centuries earlier. If that wasn't "telling you that you cannot speak in your own dialect" in all but coming straight out and saying it, I don't know what would have been.

 

Little is recorded about the demise of Norn, but from what little that can be ascertained, it would seem the same process applied by incomers to belittle and deride the speech, which saw it killed off has been applied to Shetland in more recent history, and was doing a very good job of working, and probably still is.

 

Until about 30 years ago there was no noticable enthusiasm or encouragement towards Shetland unless by a very small number of enthusiasts, the general attitude was pretty much "que sera sera"....

 

It has only been the realisation that with an ingress of non Shetland speakers which has swelled the polulation by 20-25% in the last 40 years, that the influence of the various interactions between them and Shetland speakers, that Shetland by all appearances was going to effectively be a dead language too within one or two generations.

 

A working knowledge of standard English is necessary to be able to function in the world today, and evolution of languages and dialects are natural, but when manufactured circumstance turns normal evolution (which by definition is usually a slow progressive and almost impreceptible process) in to a rout heading towards imminent annhilation, the "shock" factor kinda kicks in. People tend to see it as a part of themselves that is being killed off.

 

If the dialect is not at least accepted and encouraged, it will die rapidly. Teaching it is IMHO the last resort in keeping it alive, and I'm far from convinced doing so it a very good idea, but if its not being taught within the next decade or so, there will be barely enough fluent speakers left to learn it from and any Shetland that is spoken naturally by the vast majority who at under 30-40 right now, will be an an extremely pale and barely recognisable shadow of the Shetland that us over 40's still speak. If Shetland is not taught, or at least promoted successfully ASAP, it is dead, that is what we will lose.

 

It also begs the question why draw the line in the sand here? Why not revert to Norn? All dialects are funny mobile beasts. how can you be sure at what point it should stop moving? Is your version of Shetland dialect the same as the one spoken 100 years ago? Does that make yours any less valid? What if the generation that follows you has a dialect much closer to standard English? What makes that wrong?

 

The line is being drawn in the sand where it is, as it is at that line that we still have something that is in existence, in everyday use, and perfectly functional. It is an attempt to retain what's left quickly before it vanishes completely. Evolution of speech is natural and wherever possible should be left alone IMHO, the difference here being that in times past, despite normal evolution Shetland speakers from a century or two apart, were they alive to do so could have easily conversed with each other. In the present, there has become a very evident demarcation line between generations in ability to converse. As an approximation, all Shetland speakers born pre-1970 can converse among themselves freely in Shetland, but generally speaking those born pre-1970 communicating with those born post 1970 cannot make themselves understood without resorting to either standard English or the "dumbed down" (which is virtually standard English with an accent) version of Shetland that exists for the most part in that demographic.

 

Its not a case "what if" the generation which follows has a dialect closer to English, the two generations following me already do. I cannot converse with the vast majority of them unless in standard English.

 

I'm not arguing inferiority or superiority of either "old" or "new" versions, however any individual speaks naturally is of equal validity to however any other individual speaks naturally, nor am I arguing that its "wrong" the older version dies off with us 40+'s. Circumstance dictated that over 40's learned speech that has sustained for centuries with only relatively minor evolutionary changes, and under 40's learned a whole new version of speech due to the sudden influx of non Shetland speakers through exposure to different tongues and the need to find an effective way to communicate between both groupings.

 

Evolution is natural, but I don't think I'm stretching the point to claim that what Shetland has experienced goes well beyond evolution. In effect under 40's created a whole new dialect from scratch with their generation, with only limited, some might say token, borrowings from Shetland.

 

I'm seated on the fence on all of it, as a fluent speaker of the "old" version of Shetland I see it as very sad that my chosen form of speech, having developed, and evolved in to an excellent communication tool and sustained for centuries, suddenly has 20-40 years effective useful life left in it. Its kinda like watching a good friend slowly wither up and die. However, I tend to believe that once a form of speech disappears from everyday use, its effectively dead, and teaching it is effectively an exercise in history and nostalgia.

 

The point being, if folk deem preservation of the "old" Shetland is worthwhile, even if it is just for history and nostalgia, the time to do it is now, as once us over 40's get plywood overcoats, the base material is gone. Despite there now being a reasonable amount writen in Shetland, almost none of it is written as it is spoken, so is only of limited use at best, as invariably concessions are made borrowing from English, and the correct pronounciations are certainly uncatered for, as the English alphabet simply doesn't make many of the necessary sounds. The only writer I have come across who makes any serious attempt to write Shetland as it is spoken is Robert Alan Jamieson, and is as often as not described as having a somewhat "eccentric" style for his trouble. Perhaps that says more about the general attitude towards the "old" Shetland as anything else.

 

Were we dealing with normal evolution of speech which altered at an almost imperceptible pace, I very much doubt anyone would be saying anything, or indeed notice. But it actual fact, what is being dealt with once you take in down to the bare bones, is the sudden stop of a form of speech, and the creation of a whole new form with minor borrwings from the old.

 

"Old" Shetland had a great deal of olde English/Scots in it, but also had liberal doses of Norn derivatives, Dutch/German and probably odds and sods of French, which had evolved largely in isolation in to a unique tongue. The main difference with "old" Shetland though, is one that's commonly overlooked, and in fact denied by some, in that it may not have been the words themselves that set it so far apart from English/Scots (and the reason I'd argue "old" Shetland is a language, not a dialect), but that "old" Shetland used a completely different sentence structure, grammar and phraseology to English, and also, even though many words were derived from English/Scots, they had a completely different meaning to the English/Scots one.

 

With the weight of infuence of English speakers locally post 1970, those who have grown up since then have developed a dialect that is simply English/Scots with a different accent.

[Shasel]

Why take the inheritance from the Shetlandic people, why inflict someone else's language upon them, and in effect, take Shetland from the Shetlanders???

 

Oh, and talking about the English language, it is not "well standard". To argue for the English language to be inflicted on anyone, it is advisable to be aware of its grammar.

 

I though Norn is techincally the 'language of the Shetlanders'. The Shetland dialect version of English is precisely that. A dialect. You are already speaking and writing English just your own version of it. In effect the language has already been inflicted in the dim and distant past.

 

Besides nobody is saying you cannot speak the local dialect. What I was asking is why the objection to schools requiring that students speak and write in standard English. My suggestion would be that there will be a significant number of the young from Shetland who will not see out their days on Shetland and as such the best way to prepare them for the world would be for them to use standard English.

 

As for your aside about grammar I missed one mark. I was not saying that Standard English was well standard rather that it was ,well, standard. using the breaks as pauses to replicate the pattern in speech.

[Shasel]

Ghostrider that was a very informative post and I completely understand where you are coming from. I never realised that the dialect had changed so drastically.

 

I guess my only exposure has been to the new version of the dialect which is as you say in effect a variation on Scots English with an accent. I never realised that so much had been lost already and as such any more erosion really should not be tolerated.

 

Thanks you.

[Shasel]

Certainly, proficiency in standard English is important. My Shetland cultural identity is also important to me, though. Why should one exclude the other? Why should my expertise in English suffocate my knowledge of Shaetlan? To imply that it should smacks of cultural imperialism.

 

Of course languages change with time-who suggested that they did not?

Language extinction is a wholly different thing, though, and that's what's happening here.

 

I'm not sure where your focus on a separate 'educational' context comes from. Surely if most Shetlanders are educated here and go on to live here it would be quite practical for them to maintain the speech forms of their forebears (as well as speaking decent standard English for their shopping trips to Aberdeen). What's that- Aberdonians don't speak English either? Oh bloody hell!

 

Never been accused of being imperialist before. Quite the contrary in fact. I guess I entered this discussion at a point where someone was taking exception to not being allowed to use the dialect in school.

 

Ghostriders post made it a bit clearer for me that we are in effect talking about three states. Norn which has become extinct. Old Shetland which is almost a distinct language (certainly Ghostriders description of different grammar and base sounds fits all the tests) and the language I have had exposure to which is an awful lot closer to English. I agree extinction of what is in effect a different language would be a shame. Convergence of dialect on the other hand seems inevitable. Heck some of the kids back home have all manner of additions which are american. Thanks TV.

 

Your Aberdeen remark is interesting. I do not know about Aberdeen but I do know about Glasgow and there are many people there who if you listen to them it does not sound like English. I know my wife used to have great difficulty understanding some of my relatives. And yet we were not taught or allowed to use the dialect in school. I remember getting into trouble for using the word wee in an essay. So the suggestion that not being able to use the dialect in school will kill the dialect is in my experience false. It will survive as long as people talk. What will happen is that every generation will make it their own. Words enter, leave and change all the time and even accents change. It is difficult because while it would be a shame to lose the history is it not too prescriptive to tell the new generations they do not have the power to make language their own?

[joenorth]

Boy, I hear dee.

[Njugle]

In a short and fairly blunt way of steering the discussion maybe a bit away from merely the linguistic aspects of the debate, I'd have to say that rather than the scottification as discussed, I think that, as Shasel says, the assimilation in terms of popular culture is national and international, via TV and the internet. The young people I am in contact with most frequently speak a hybrid that draws from California as much as it draws from Scotland, in both word use and grammatical structure. I've never heard any recurrence of the word "wee", for instance, but the word "dude" is prevalent.

 

As an idealogical vantage point, this only serves to emphasise that Shetland in contemporary times has a necessity to seek the best solution for its past, present and future identity, both economically and politically. This may well be the necessary impetus behind a requirement to not pretend to be a closely neighboured part of Scotland, and in fact a rocky outpost effectively equidistant from three disparate neighbours in the northwest Atlantic. Aligning with the UK rather than Holyrood would be a departure from any pretence that we share an identical political and socioeconomic realm with our brethren on mainland Scotland. We never really have and we never will, unless the islands are towed up the moray firth and a bridge is built.

[Kavi Ugl]

If the Shetland teachers in wir schools spoke Shetland to the bairns it might make a difference. They could easily encourage Shetland but they choose not to.

 

As it is, they deliberately speak english(and it's my guess they regard Shetland as an inferior language) so what hope is there?.

 

I see from my own neices and nephews that they come from school speaking that dreadful scots-english(us, our ) but revert back to Shetland when among Shetland speakers.

[DePooperit]

In a short and fairly blunt way of steering the discussion maybe a bit away from merely the linguistic aspects of the debate, I'd have to say that rather than the scottification as discussed, I think that, as Shasel says, the assimilation in terms of popular culture is national and international, via TV and the internet. The young people I am in contact with most frequently speak a hybrid that draws from California as much as it draws from Scotland, in both word use and grammatical structure. I've never heard any recurrence of the word "wee", for instance, but the word "dude" is prevalent.

 

As an idealogical vantage point, this only serves to emphasise that Shetland in contemporary times has a necessity to seek the best solution for its past, present and future identity, both economically and politically. This may well be the necessary impetus behind a requirement to not pretend to be a closely neighboured part of Scotland, and in fact a rocky outpost effectively equidistant from three disparate neighbours in the northwest Atlantic. Aligning with the UK rather than Holyrood would be a departure from any pretence that we share an identical political and socioeconomic realm with our brethren on mainland Scotland. We never really have and we never will, unless the islands are towed up the moray firth and a bridge is built.

 

I think that the fact that the language question keeps cropping up shows that it's impossible to talk about Shetland identity without it. However, it's not only what form of language you speak that's relevant, but also what nomenclature you use.

 

The word 'Sooth' seems to me to encapsulate a great deal of the issues involved, including those where Shetlanders have, or used to have, attitudes that Mainland Scots find surprising. As far as I can remember, while anti-Scottish sentiments did exist, these were mostly in the realm of ancient history. For most everyday purposes, there were Shetlanders, Foreigners, and Sooth Fock (not Sooth Moothers, which was really applied to incomers from Sooth - who came in the Sooth Mooth of Lerwick harbour - rather than Sooth Fock in general.)

 

Although there was a vague consciousness of a Nordic connection, Norwegians were still regarded as foreigners; and although everybody naturally knew that Scotland and England were not the same, these differences were, I would suggest, not as important to Shetlanders as the fact that they were both 'Sooth.'

 

In other words, the English/Scottish debate that was important to Scots wasn't nearly as important to Shetlanders, and the denial that they were Scottish wasn't so much a statement of anti-Scottishness as objection to an identification that didn't seem relevant at all.

[DePooperit]

 

However, this should be seen as 'inter-tribal': conflict between parties of equal means. Such traditional conflict was never characterised by prejudice levelled by the majority population at a minority population (who were culturally different from all other Shetlanders). Imbalances in power suffuse such interactions, and this is what makes them different. This is what the case of the Lerrick Scotties is about. They possessed all the characteristics of an immigrant ethnic minority population group.

 

...

 

So, to me, one less such prejudice fading into the past can only be a good thing.

 

 

Yes - but how much of that prejudice actually depended on the Shetland/Scottie distinction? I would bet that, even if Shetlanders - or Lerwegians - had thought of themselves as Scottish, they would have found some other label for the incomers. At this (North East) end of the same process, they talk about 'Gamrie Lerricks' - ie, people from Gamrie who moved to Lerwick. No prejudice there, of course; but Shetlanders might easily have referred to the people they wished to discriminate against as 'Lerrick Gamrics' or such - even if they didn't all come from Gamrie, which would be irrelevant if you were looking for a catchall phrase.

[Njugle]

In other words, the English/Scottish debate that was important to Scots wasn't nearly as important to Shetlanders, and the denial that they were Scottish wasn't so much a statement of anti-Scottishness as objection to an identification that didn't seem relevant at all.

 

I would pretty much entirely agree with that, and that is why I take issue against this perceived scottification that was being discussed, I don't think that is any more prevalent than say Californication, if you'll excuse the pre-exisiting pun.

 

I'd contest in that post, Depooperit, the omission of the term Norskie. I've never heard a Scandinavian referred to as a foreigner, per se, where there is any knowledge of origin. You are more likely to hear of a Norskie boat being in the harbour, as opposed to a foreign boat, for example in the vernacular.

 

However, language and nomenclature do not detract from the separation, physically and socioeconomically that Shetland has exhibited since....well, probably since it broke off of the American continent. I'm very much for the talking of dialect in schools (as well as English), as part of a modern education, in fact, it actually tends toward the UK-wide Curriculum for Excellence, touted as the future of education, as the practice of such would introduce an intergenerational, historical and a political learning opportunity in one theme.

 

However, (again), if we are to be governed, should we be governed by representatives in Holyrood who think they understand our separation, or by representatives in Westminster who know they do not understand our separation?

[DePooperit]

 

I would pretty much entirely agree with that, and that is why I take issue against this perceived scottification that was being discussed, I don't think that is any more prevalent than say Californication, if you'll excuse the pre-exisiting pun.

 

...

 

However, language and nomenclature do not detract from the separation, physically and socioeconomically that Shetland has exhibited since....well, probably since it broke off of the American continent.

 

...

 

However, (again), if we are to be governed, should we be governed by representatives in Holyrood who think they understand our separation, or by representatives in Westminster who know they do not understand our separation?

 

I would say that language and nomenclature express the physical and socioeconomic separation. One question that occurs to me is how far, supposing for the sake of argument that Shetland adopts a totally mainstream viewpoint, Shetland can actually ever be satisfactorily the same as other parts of Mainland Britain.

 

Another example of nomenclature that sometimes crops up in this context is 'insular', almost always used derogatorily, as if it were 'parochial' - ie, suggesting narrow minded and ingrown attitudes. But whereas parishes (parochial) are man-made divisions, islands (insular) are not. Is there not something ironic in using or accepting the word 'insular' as a derogatory term if you live on an island?

 

I suppose the thinking might be that, with modern media and communications, the enforced isolation of Shetland, as of islands in general, is a thing of the past, and it's 'really' just like any other area of Scotland. And I wonder if, again, there may be a toon/country division in attitude here. It must be a lot easier to think of yourself as just being in another part of Scotland if you live in Lerwick - which could in some respects be any small town anywhere in Scotland - than in Whalsay or Hillswick.

 

As regards 'Scottification' - doesn't this refer to the increasing perception amongst younger Shetlanders that they are Scottish? I don't suppose any of them think that they're Californian? If so, presumably that would influence any referendum on whether to be governed from Holyrood or Westminster.