New Road Signs

[deardron]

For example, I'd actually agree with the above interpretation for Sumburgh, it makes sense and is the best I've seen in a while. However, the commonest meaning but forth is that it was "Swyenbroch" (or something like that), meaning the broch where they kept swine (pigs). Personally I'd be tempted to believe that if "Swyenbroch" is the correct old name, that a much simpler explanation was behind it, that it was simply "Sven's Broch", the broch when some guy called Sven lived. But what do I know.

I wouldn't stake on the 'swine/Sven' explanation just for phonetic reasons, making "sunn/sum" out of "sven/svin" doesn't seem to be likely for Shetland (albeit theoretically possible). There's also a close parallel in the Faroes, their southernmost village is called Sumba < ON Sunn(an)bœr 'southern farm/settlement'. Quite logical that Norsemen would have followed a similar naming policy for a place in South Shetland, bearing in mind they weren't too inventive, having left lots of identical place names where ever they lived.

 

The Scousburgh explanation however I'd say is total garbage. What notch or score in what rocks?

I agree that that etymology was dubious. However, what about Hascosay near Yell? This could be interpreted as ON "Há-skás-ey", "island of high turf", Norn sko 'turf (from the greensward)', Papa St. Scousburgh could then be ON "Skásborg" 'turf broch' (?).

 

Bigton, again, dubious. You don't go very far back to find that it was Bichton (there's another on of them in Unst I believe), it was still known as "Bichton" by locals less than a century ago. The older generation when I was a bairn all maintained the name meant exactly what it said, Bichton, the "toon in/at the bicht", which makes perfect sense, the original "Bigton" was in/at the bight of St Ninian's Isle. (Here again you have to appreciate that the original Bigton was only the area where the buildings and immediately surrounding land of the Bigton Farm stand today, everywhere else was known by other names. Its only in relatively recent years that "Bigton" has come to be understood to be everything from Maywick to Rerwick).

I still think though that Stuart's etymology is no worse than yours. In the language of Norsemen "Byggtún" could be well pronounced as By[ch]tún. F.ex. that was the way they pronounced the participle "byggt" = built. Moreover, I feel that the placename "Barley Field" sounds a bit better and more natural that "Bight Town", although it can be argued.

[CrunchieSquirrel]

http://www.notshetland.com/stuff/signtoon.jpg

 

South of the matchbox? Where's that, in Lerwick?

[Ghostrider]

^^ Nah. Once upon a time, actually not long ago, the toon stopped at the Matchbox (South Lochside junction), and Sooth o' da Matchbox was a term used to describe everything beyond that point out the South Road and as far as Sumburgh Head.

[Ghostrider]

I fart when I sleep

 

 

TMI!

[Kavi Ugl]

[south of the matchbox? Where's that, in Lerwick?

 

 

Well, there's more than one matchbox in Lerwick but there's only one true Matchbox and that was Jimmy Cole's/Kol's(?) house which is the peerie (last)house on the South Road before the Clickimin roundabout .

 

R.E place names, I just quoted fae John Stewart's book so I'm no digging my personal heels in on what the names mean. I do finn it very interesting though.

[EM]

...there's only one true Matchbox and that was Jimmy Cole's/Kol's(?) house...

Surely not the former spelling? My understanding was that his nickname was based on coal.

 

which is the peerie (last)house on...

It was indeed a cute abode. Seeing as it is nowhere near as peerie since its extension was added, maybe we should now start calling it "da fag packet" .

[Frankie]

What's 'technological' aboot it?

 

Did you not notice they've replaced the old posts with passively safe posts ?

 

Not that it really matters much at this location.

[Kavi Ugl]

Yeh, for me the extention ruined the peerie quant character of it

 

I thought it was to do with coal too but I believe the sign they erected at the steps there is "Jimmy Cole's Steps" or something ....so I wasn't %100 sure what the spelling/meaning was.

 

I stand to be corrected so will need to check sometime for myself.

[Ghostrider]

For example, I'd actually agree with the above interpretation for Sumburgh, it makes sense and is the best I've seen in a while. However, the commonest meaning but forth is that it was "Swyenbroch" (or something like that), meaning the broch where they kept swine (pigs). Personally I'd be tempted to believe that if "Swyenbroch" is the correct old name, that a much simpler explanation was behind it, that it was simply "Sven's Broch", the broch when some guy called Sven lived. But what do I know.

I wouldn't stake on the 'swine/Sven' explanation just for phonetic reasons, making "sunn/sum" out of "sven/svin" doesn't seem to be likely for Shetland (albeit theoretically possible). There's also a close parallel in the Faroes, their southernmost village is called Sumba < ON Sunn(an)bœr 'southern farm/settlement'. Quite logical that Norsemen would have followed a similar naming policy for a place in South Shetland, bearing in mind they weren't too inventive, having left lots of identical place names where ever they lived.

 

I agree with you entirely, "southern broch" makes perfect sense. What I was trying to get at was that in the (albeit limited) published attempts at offering Norse origins and meaning for many Shetland placenames I have come across, by far and away the majority offer "Swyenbroch" as the Norse origin for Sumburgh. I don't think its right, but clearly by the number of people who have published it one place or another there are some who do, and would no doubt argue the point.

 

I was attempting to illustrate my point in the previous post, of the danger of including any sort of "origin" meanings or explanations on any signage, insofar as there are many placenames for which more than one "origin/meaning" has been published, each with its own group of supporters who also dismiss other suggested possible meanings/origins out of hand. There's obviously a great deal of research and debate needed on many placenames before anything like a majority concensus of opinon can be reached, and IMHO to include any suggested possible meaning/origin on signage until that is done, is to be taking a 50/50 chance on either factually informing people or totally misleading them with a well meaning, but nevertheless total fabrication of fantasy.

 

Coincidentally its only a week or so ago that I accidentally came across a map of Faroe, and what immediately became obvious was the significant number of placenames we have in common with them or are at least similar. IMHO any serious attempt to analyse meanings and origins of Shetland placenames could do a lot worse than collaborate with someone in Faroe knowledgable in such things, and debate with them on those common or similar to both islands.

 

As far as history and languages go I'm only an interested amateur, so am quite happy to stand corrected by professionals in the field if their more extensive knowledge can unearth meanings which aren't obvious on the surface. However it seems to me at least, that most Shetland placenames tend to in some way be descriptive of some physical characteristic of the location they pertain to, so when someone offeres up a meaning that has no real obvious relevance to the location, it tends to raise a red flag with me.

 

The Scousburgh explanation however I'd say is total garbage. What notch or score in what rocks?

I agree that that etymology was dubious. However, what about Hascosay near Yell? This could be interpreted as ON "Há-skás-ey", "island of high turf", Norn sko 'turf (from the greensward)', Papa St. Scousburgh could then be ON "Skásborg" 'turf broch' (?).

 

Yes, I would say "Skásborg" 'turf broch' is very plausible. The ON word and the modern pronounciation are relatively close, and a number of physical facts about the site would support the meaning.

 

a) The site is notoriously lacking in not only good quality building stone, but in almost any stone at all. There is plenty of reasonable quality stone not all that far away, but the easiest to source would have required to have been carried perhaps around 1/3 mile uphill, and that which was closer and able to be carried over the flat, is extremely hard and would very likely have been nigh on impossible to quarry with the tools of that era. So the use of turf in the construction may well have had to be undertaken. Extensive turf field dykes were common nearby and in use up to the mid 20th C. for the same reason, lack of servicable stone.

 

Around 50% of the immediate approach to the broch site was a natural defence, the ground is so steep that it is extremely difficult to walk on, and it and the broch probably were an extension of each other, which would have negated the need for the broch to have been so high, or at least to have the same strength to the same height is other examples. Possibly turf was deemed adequate for most or all of the walls in that area.

 

 

 

Bigton, again, dubious. You don't go very far back to find that it was Bichton (there's another on of them in Unst I believe), it was still known as "Bichton" by locals less than a century ago. The older generation when I was a bairn all maintained the name meant exactly what it said, Bichton, the "toon in/at the bicht", which makes perfect sense, the original "Bigton" was in/at the bight of St Ninian's Isle. (Here again you have to appreciate that the original Bigton was only the area where the buildings and immediately surrounding land of the Bigton Farm stand today, everywhere else was known by other names. Its only in relatively recent years that "Bigton" has come to be understood to be everything from Maywick to Rerwick).

I still think though that Stuart's etymology is no worse than yours. In the language of Norsemen "Byggtún" could be well pronounced as By[ch]tún. F.ex. that was the way they pronounced the participle "byggt" = built. Moreover, I feel that the placename "Barley Field" sounds a bit better and more natural that "Bight Town", although it can be argued.

 

Bigton is probably more difficult than the other two to anlyse. Sumburgh and Scousbugh, both being brochs we can know pre-dated the Norse arrival, and survived the Norse period, hence there was something there when the Norsemen arrived and existed as long as they were here and beyond, and which they almost certainly had to give a name to.

 

The history of Bigton is less clear, we know St Ninian's Isle had human activity per-Norse, but it only became part of the Bigton estate from where the name Bigton originates, several centuries later. Ireland existed during the Norse period, but Ireland is not, and never has been part of the Bigton estate, it only became part of "Bigton" when school and postal districts were established.

 

Whether anything existed where the original Bigton stands today before it was acquired by the Stewart family in the later 16th or early 17th C. doesn't seem to be widely known, nor whether it was named when they obtained it or if he named it. Stewart is recorded as having obtained it, but no details are recorded of what "Bigton" at that time extended to, nor in what manner he obtained it (ie. bought "as is", or if he bought numerous small adjoining tracts and combined them in to one whole). If it was simply a vacant tract of land, or even if it was a collection of individually named crofts without an encompassing common name, it is not unreasonable to consider that perhaps it had no Norse name and Stewart named it when he obtained it. Or even if was named, there is no way of knowing that Stewart didn't rename in when he obtained it. In either of those possibilities it would then be a name of Scots origin, rather than Norse, as Stewart was from Orkney of Scots parents.

 

Interestingly some older writings describe it as "Bigtoun", which, if it were a name of Scots origin, offers up the alternate theory that it was simply a somewhat vain and boastful Scotsman blowing his own trumpet, as it very probably was the "biggest toun" for quite some distance.

 

Unrelated to any of the above and simply for my own curiosity, does the prefix "Duri" or "Durrie" on a placename suggest anything in particular in ON?

[deardron]

I agree with you entirely, "southern broch" makes perfect sense. What I was trying to get at was that in the (albeit limited) published attempts at offering Norse origins and meaning for many Shetland placenames I have come across, by far and away the majority offer "Swyenbroch" as the Norse origin for Sumburgh. I don't think its right, but clearly by the number of people who have published it one place or another there are some who do, and would no doubt argue the point.

 

I was attempting to illustrate my point in the previous post, of the danger of including any sort of "origin" meanings or explanations on any signage, insofar as there are many placenames for which more than one "origin/meaning" has been published, each with its own group of supporters who also dismiss other suggested possible meanings/origins out of hand.

Well, sometimes such people can partly be right, because there might have been an older (pre-Viking in our case) placename that could be re-interpreted by the newcomers with similar sounding words from their own language. However, in this particular case I believe that both phonetics and comparison with the Faroes don't leave us many options.

 

In the general case interpreting place names is a whole science, where different viewpoints compete more than often, but.. it's like everywhere else in our life

 

Coincidentally its only a week or so ago that I accidentally came across a map of Faroe, and what immediately became obvious was the significant number of placenames we have in common with them or are at least similar. IMHO any serious attempt to analyse meanings and origins of Shetland placenames could do a lot worse than collaborate with someone in Faroe knowledgable in such things, and debate with them on those common or similar to both islands.

Yes, it should be someone(s) with the knowledge of Faroese/Norse placenames as well as Scots/Pictish/Gaelic who could do the job. However, I haven't read that book by Stewart, may be he's quite good at it, except some odd etymology.

 

As far as history and languages go I'm only an interested amateur, so am quite happy to stand corrected by professionals in the field if their more extensive knowledge can unearth meanings which aren't obvious on the surface. However it seems to me at least, that most Shetland placenames tend to in some way be descriptive of some physical characteristic of the location they pertain to, so when someone offeres up a meaning that has no real obvious relevance to the location, it tends to raise a red flag with me.

That can be useful to hear the opinion of people like you, who know the places in question visually or know their story and can tell whether there is a fissure in a rock as the etymologist suggests or not! So you can consider yourself as part of the process

 

Yes, I would say "Skásborg" 'turf broch' is very plausible. The ON word and the modern pronounciation are relatively close, and a number of physical facts about the site would support the meaning.

 

a) The site is notoriously lacking in not only good quality building stone, but in almost any stone at all. There is plenty of reasonable quality stone not all that far away, but the easiest to source would have required to have been carried perhaps around 1/3 mile uphill, and that which was closer and able to be carried over the flat, is extremely hard and would very likely have been nigh on impossible to quarry with the tools of that era. So the use of turf in the construction may well have had to be undertaken. Extensive turf field dykes were common nearby and in use up to the mid 20th C. for the same reason, lack of servicable stone.

 

Around 50% of the immediate approach to the broch site was a natural defence, the ground is so steep that it is extremely difficult to walk on, and it and the broch probably were an extension of each other, which would have negated the need for the broch to have been so high, or at least to have the same strength to the same height is other examples. Possibly turf was deemed adequate for most or all of the walls in that area.

OK, that's good to know. In fact your explanation has made me start thinking that "broch/burgh" could mean not only some kind of a fortification, but also have a broader meaning, as just an abode or settlement. Because building a tower with turf makes less sense than if it was just a family house made of turf or another non-military kind of a building. Then it would literally mean the same as the Faroese Sumba.

 

Bigton is probably more difficult than the other two to anlyse. <...> In either of those possibilities it would then be a name of Scots origin, rather than Norse, as Stewart was from Orkney of Scots parents.

 

Interestingly some older writings describe it as "Bigtoun", which, if it were a name of Scots origin, offers up the alternate theory that it was simply a somewhat vain and boastful Scotsman blowing his own trumpet, as it very probably was the "biggest toun" for quite some distance.

Probably you're right, as I said above there can be different versions of origin. It would be good to trace this placename in records, if it appeared before the 16th century then I would suggest it's either Norse or Pictish. The spelling "-toun" doesn't make a big difference (IMHO), because it could refer to ON "tún" (spelled as 'toon'). F.ex., George Low eagerly uses the spelling 'ou' for the sound 'oo' in his recording of the ballad of Hildina.

 

Unrelated to any of the above and simply for my own curiosity, does the prefix "Duri" or "Durrie" on a placename suggest anything in particular in ON?

It can refer to ON "dura" (doors', of the doors), which is rather rare in placenames though. The final 'a' and 'i' are often interchangeable in Norn. I don't know whether you still use the word 'durasuk/dorosuk', it means a draught of air between doors or through a narrow passage, its has the same part.

 

There's another word, more obscure, dorifetels/dorrifetels (lazy lounging or huddling up; indisposition and fretfulness), where 'dorri' is believed to be connected to Norw. durra (disorderly pile; entangled mass).

 

Do these words give you any new ideas?

[tirvaluk]

Reminds me of the time in Skye a few extremists went around painting out the English names and painting the Gaelic equivilant, they got to Ardvasar, painted oot Ardvasar, and then painted in the Gaelic name,which was Ardvasar

[deardron]

Reminds me of the time in Skye a few extremists went around painting out the English names and painting the Gaelic equivilant, they got to Ardvasar, painted oot Ardvasar, and then painted in the Gaelic name,which was Ardvasar

Ardvasar or Ardbhasar?

 

A couple of years ago there was a play "There's no 'V' in Gaelic":

 

http://www.anlochran.co.uk/component/content/article/36/103-theres-no-v-in-gaelic-

 

[Marooned in Maywick]

What's 'technological' aboot it?

 

Did you not notice they've replaced the old posts with passively safe posts ?

 

Not that it really matters much at this location.

 

No - I was too busy trying to avoid photographers and road sign enthusiasts to notice the posts.

[Marooned in Maywick]

 

A couple of years ago there was a play "There's no 'V' in Gaelic":

 

Wouldn't particularly bother me if there was no 'F' in Gaelic either...

[Frankie]

^^^ You're on fire today MiM !!