Would you pay for a Concert if the Singers were miming?

[unstman100]

[**Mod Edit - Title changed to reflect content of Poll**]

 

Acceptable Fraud – Shouldn’t be

 

I do not know what all the fuss was about regarding Bjorn Again performing live, but questions as to whether they were miming or not. I noticed myself, watching other bands/musical performers’ play/sing, the slight time delay between watching them on the stage to this of seeing them on the massive television screen next to the stage. Due to the amount of cabling, hardware and other bits of technology the video and sound signal has to go through, it is not surprising there is going to be a very slight delay on the screen from what is coming live. Even television broadcasts reputed to be transmitting live (sport a good example), there is a delay of several seconds, and in some cases, even minutes to what actually happens to what you see on your tv screen.

 

The music industry or certain record companies have been getting their investments (boy/girl bands.....bands, that’s a joke...bands normally have ‘the artists playing instruments’ as well) to mime, sing in an attempted synchronisation to a backing track or a cd reproduction but play it off as being a live performance.

 

You’re having a joke, aren’t you? Modern pop bands (predominantly boy and girl bands again (mass produce garbage)), have been miming every so-called live concert they do. Do you honestly think they can do all those well rehearsed dance routines and physically sustain a singing voice.....I think not.

 

We have been seriously brainwashed since the early ninety’s with the major record companies mass producing garbage/trash on the basis that image, not musical talent and ability, is the basis of pop music now. If you look good, that’ll do........doesn’t matter if you cannot sing...(with all the modern technology/software they have in recording studios, anybody can sing....and I mean anybody) we’ll tweak your voice in the studio...or....you can mime when performing live....we’ll just play a studio version of the song......the public will pay handsomely for tickets, cd’s, t-shirt’s and all the other paraphernalia we can give the deluded fans because they are so easily parted with their money.

 

Who created these entire image based bands, who is responsible for the publicity (brainwashing), who benefits from all this.........two words......record companies. Technology has played a major part in this means of making easy money. I must admit, I use the same technology (albeit on a vastly smaller budget), to write, compose, play and record the music I want to create. Certain music studios (on behalf of the record companies) have done away with musicians, bands and groups as it costs too much.......technology, in the long term, is far cheaper, more versatile and is easier to control. What has replaced the talented musicians.....you guessed correctly.....image.....hence so much manufactured/fake/false/fraudulent music nowadays.

 

So, the next time you see a so-called pop star or boy/girl band being promoted by the tv, radio, press, magazines etc.......ask yourself.....Is this really value for money or am I being conned?

 

There is a saying ‘ You’ll never meet a honest business person ‘, this is so true with modern pop music now.

[MuckleJoannie]

Yes but people still buy their product.

[JohanofNess]

Yes but people still buy their product.

 

Never let lack of talent get in the way of a marketable commodity. Simon Cowell has made millions out of convincing the public that the crap he pedals annually on the x-factor is worth buying when there is likely a guy doing a gig in a pub round the corner who is substantially better at singing, songwriting and hell he could maybe play an instrument.

[Spinner72]

IMO the recent mini-uproar about miming was largely due to a misunderstanding.

 

Bjorn Again don't have a "live" bass player, and that, combined with some keyboard-triggered effects, was enough to put many people off, and the wording managed to swing right around until they were being accused of full blown miming.

 

This is understandable. In Shetland, especially, we are very used to "completely" live music, but I will guarantee anyone who regularly attends traditional dances has danced to a MIDI keyboard or Accordion filing the bassline at some point.

 

But is that OK? Sure, it arguably takes more talent on the part of the keyboard player or accordionist to play in a fashion to make the synthesized bass sound natural, so nobody is being cheated, it is still live isn't it?

 

But, moving away from that, and go to any small pub in scotland when they have a billboard outside with one name on it advertising live music - at least 50% of the time, if not more, it will be one prson with backing tracks, or a pile of expanders and sequencers, keeping the punters happy. But is it live? Are you being fiddled?

 

What if you bought a ticket to see KT Tunstal and she did this :

 

 

Are you still being cheated?

 

Sure seems like it by some criteria - most of those were recorded sounds she was singing to. But I rate it as one of the best live shows you can go see today.

 

Even the great Les Paul was at it years ago - but he kept selling tickets!

 

At the end of the day, whether a band is playing to backing tracks, using effects, or even full blown miming its not fraudulent in any way, just how they do their show, and it is up to you whether you want to go.

[unstman100]

So Spinner, what your advocating, as long it entertains, it doesn't matter whether the performance, either instrument or singing, is fake, mimed ?

 

Where do you draw the boundaries between genuine music performers (as in people who actually play instruments and/or sing) to this of pushing a button on a cd player and miming ?

 

Are you suggesting or implying a person who mimes is as equally talented as a person who can play an instrument, sing beautifully or both ?

 

Are you just looking at it from the point of view of making money or by being easily entertained because it was created by a false and pretentious means....but it entertains?

 

Does technology take precedence over a live performance just because it can be done and/or be a substitute for the ' real McCoy '?

 

If I were to take a photograph of a beautiful scene, take the digital image and make look like a painting using graphic software and.........Sell it too you as a genuine painting......would you say that was acceptable? There is no difference between what I have just mentioned and what you are advocating.......claiming something to be something else when it is clearly not.

[Spinner72]

So Spinner, what your advocating, as long it entertains, it doesn't matter whether the performance, either instrument or singing, is fake, mimed ?

 

Absolutely.

 

I enjoy the muppets. But I don't for one second think they play the instruments and sing through their operators hands. If someone enjoys a certain show, whether it be completely mimed, or completely live, then it makes no difference. Personally, I would prefer a live show, but I totally understand how others would differ.

 

Whether one person is as talented as another, either in my eyes or anyone elses, is irrelevant.

 

Lets put it the simple way - if someone sings with a live band, do they they become less talented a singer if they then sing to a backing track?

[Ghostrider]

This is a lot like the old perennial agrument of whether music produced on non-conventional/traditional instruments (ie. computers, synths etc vs. guitar, piano etc) is "real" music or not.

 

A show, even if it is mimed, is a show nontheless, its just something slightly different than a 100% live act.

 

Would I pay to go to a mimed or partly mimed show? Perhaps. It all depends who and what it was. What I do object to though, is that there is no differential made between pure "live" shows and "live but partly mimed" shows when they are being promoted.

 

So that nobody feels conned or misled, I would be in favour of it being a mandatory requirement that all promotional material had to state openly and clearly what part(s) of any and all paid for public performances were being produced live there and then by the performer(s), and what part(s) were pre-recorded.

 

As long as the performer(s) in question can produce competently what the audience are being led to believe they can produce (unlike the Milli Vanilli debacle, where (allegedly) the performers couldn't replicate the product they'd led their audience to believe they could), I see no issue in how its delivered, as long as a paying customer can easily educate themselves about what precisely they are buying before they purchase it.

[Marooned in Maywick]

That wasn't what I inferred from Spinner's post at all...but I'll let him defend himself as he sees fit.

 

My opinion is that as long as a ticket purchaser isn't being hoodwinked into thinking they're getting something that they aren't - then bash on.

 

Many concerts nowadays are more about the show and performance and not simply the music.

[Longdog]

If I was to go to a concert where singers/musicians were just miming and wiggling butt I would not be at all happy. Luckily it's not my thing.

 

But as Spinner said gazillions of bands use effects such at KT Tunstalls looping and triggered effects as well as may be drum tracks or backing vocals. Along with other effect pedals it's part of modern music be it rock, dub, world or whatever. It also takes a lot of skill to do it well.

 

I played in a rock band where we had programmed drum tracks and triggered effects. We certainly weren't miming. It was largely due to the practicalities of playing our music and fitting into venues. As it was there was 6 of us, add a full drum kit, keyboard player and harmonising vocalists...

 

There is a BIG BIG difference between miming 'pop' acts and bands using technology to create their music.

[Spinner72]

I went off on a tangent there, as I am prone to do, apologies.

 

I don't see any reason to include details of a whats what in a performance, as I would rather find out as the show went on.

 

Fans know what a performance usually consists of, and especially these days, there is no excuse for not knowing with youtube etc.. (Bjorn Again being a good example, no excuse for anyone being surprised at their lineup, youtube videos from the mid 90's shows just the same)

[unstman100]

Spinner says 'Lets put it the simple way - if someone sings with a live band, do they they become less talented a singer if they then sing to a backing track? '

 

The point I am making is the act of miming......pretending to be singing to a vocal track.....when it is clearly not the original voice of the performer on the stage......unless it has been pre-recorded.

 

I watched the video you presented on your first blog, and yes, you can see the use of technology being used (pretty good at that) to enhance the singing and structure of the overall song. However, would you have put the same video up if K.T. Tunstall was miming but she was entertaining the audience ?

 

I have no objection to using technology to assist me in creating music and/or enhancing acoustic instruments (Jean Michel Jarre being a good example of this), as part and parcel of the overall structure to a tune. Where I seriously object to is a person (reputed singer or not) is blatantly miming to whatever song and is charging you to see them ' perform live '.

 

Nowadays, this description has been (perpetrated by certain factors of the music industry) replaced with ' entertaining or entertainers ', making it allowable for ' certain singers ', to get away with miming because it goes under the guise of entertainment.........this still does not negate the fact they are still committing fraud or gaining commercially by deception.

[Njugle]

Its an added controversy when speaking about Bjorn Again because they are pretending to be another band, and using fake Swedish accents. The crowd seemed to enjoy it however. The clear evidence that they weren't miming the vocals, or all of them, was the occasional minor drift off key.

 

The whole fake/real debate gets all the ore complicated when discussing cover bands. If I'd paid to see a cover band who purely mimed I'd be severely miffed. On the other hand I've been to see various electronic acts who have used almost entirely pre-sequenced backing with vocals and maybe guitars on top. In debating terms that's expensive karaoke! And I'd pay for it again.

[Spinner72]

The point I am making is the act of miming......pretending to be singing to a vocal track.....when it is clearly not the original voice of the performer on the stage......unless it has been pre-recorded.

 

My statement about people "knowing the performance" still works because some artists are known to do this. Dolly Parton for example is known to pre-record some material for her shows.

 

This would not put me off going to see her though.

 

Likewise shows like X-Factor tours etc - it is almost inevitable some of that material is pre-recorded, but given the style of the show, I doubt it would make any difference to most of the audience.

 

However, if you stoop to the level of miming to someone else playing/singing, and try to claim it is yourself, (unless part of a deliberate act, like the Muppets mentioned above) then obviously, thats wrong.

[EM]

I'm surprised TOTP hasn't been mentioned yet. Lest we forget the dangers of technical malfunction when miming:

 

 

With respect to Bjorn Again, I wouldn't have been remotely peeved if they'd been miming at Holmsgarth, but I would have been unimpressed if the Levellers had done so, and I'd been aware of it. Click tracks and sampled backing material I feel is generally fine, indeed some of the very best concerts I've attended have been so good due to this. Having to experience the Pussycat Dolls miming away once was not however one of them.

 

One situation where I would prefer if someone did mime is the wife currently scratching away on the street in busker fiddle mode. It is so dire it could only be an improvement if she stood at the cross and mimed to the music piped out of High Level, though it would look very bizarre when it changed to accordion tunes .

[unstman100]

EM said ' One situation where I would prefer if someone did mime is the wife currently scratching away on the street in busker fiddle mode. It is so dire it could only be an improvement if she stood at the cross and mimed to the music piped out of High Level, though it would look very bizarre when it changed to accordion tunes .'

 

E, didn't you know she has an inflatable accordion in that fiddle case as well

 

I see your point with the TOTP clip. Nowadays though, some people would accept this form of ' false entertainment ', because they do not know any better.........let the mainstream media dictate their view or opinion.......as long as it ' allegedly entertains '.

 

Gaining money by deception, fraudulent means is perfectly acceptable as long as they (The Pretentious Artist(s), Record Company, Recording Company) make the ' quick buck '......Why should it matter?

 

I am sure if it were a product, as in counterfeit products, this would also be perfectly acceptable as long as the people selling such products, like the certain factors of the music industry, make a handsome profit.