No 2 minutes silence on SIBC (***mod edit - the silence was observed***)

[Scorrie]

For me, the poppy represents a mark of respect for all those killed in conflict on both 'sides', let's not forget that 'the enemy' generally think they are as righteous as we do in any given conflict. They don't all sit around plotting 'evil' deeds all day.

 

Yes, lets have a deserved mark of respect for the soldiers who gave their lives going to war with the willing and knowing intent to fight against the nationalistic, xenophobic, homophobic, anti-semitic, totalitarian, fascist, racist, murderers of Nazi Germany and an equally deserved mark of respect for the nationalistic, xenophobic, homophobic, anti-semitic, totalitarian, fascist, racist, soldiers who died, that willingly and enthusiastically went to war with the intent to fight as a part of and for Nazi Gemany.

 

The tragedy of Nazis killed in war must be remembered. Lets have a minutes silence for Fred West too, a human being who died before he naturally should have.

 

Lets turn the park they built into a memorial for him and the others who died in Cromwell st. "A mark of respect for all those killed....on both 'sides'"

 

Oh, deary me.......

 

Still, you have to laugh.....

[scoots]

^^ ... Ouch!

[Gibber]

You could wave a German flag at the cenotaph during the minutes silence next year to remember the other side who really really ferverantly believed they were in the right.

[Scorrie]

Military ideology isn't your strong subject, is it?

[Gibber]

True, I am only assuming that remembering dead Nazis isn't the point of rememberence Sunday or the symbology of the poppy. And doing so would probably be an insult to the memory (and to those still living) of those specifically being recognised through rememberence.

 

Perhaps I'm wrong.

[scoots]

True, IMO. I always believed - and still do - that we are remembering those of our nation (and, usually, the area we live in) who gave their lives in a fight against tyranny, despotism, and those who pursue their relentless ideology through terrorism and murder. I will not consider, for one second, those who fought against - and killed - those to whom we pay our respects.

[Gibber]

This is why I don't understand the ceremony, if its for those who only fought and died in a just war/s it either presupposes that all wars fought by Britain have been just or its only for some of those who died in conflict.

 

If its for everyone who died in war you let in everyone who has fought for Britain in unjust or unecessary wars, if you're Scorrie you go as far as to let in the Nazis, Mugabe's military, Syria's soldiers etc. When you find yourself wistfully looking to the horizon in silence for some Saudi soldier who's died shooting demonstrators in Bahrain you should stop letting symbols like poppies and a trendy position of moral equivalence do your thinking for you.

 

If its an anti-war ceremony it would make more sense, recognising the sacrifice of some and the evil of others are both regretable things, but why is everyone from the head of the armed forces down parading about in their uniforms especially in a time of (arguably) being in an unjust war if that's the case?

[scoots]

Is that not about everyone - including those in whatever uniforms - recognising the loss of their friends/family/comrades, rather than a celebration of war?

 

I see it as a way of paying tribute to those who have lost their lives, on our behalf as part of our armed forces, in whatever conflict, regardless of your beliefs on wars, etc. it's not about the conflict they died in, its about the fact that they DID die. The loss of those lives, that's something I can honestly say I consider on a regular basis.

 

But personally I also DO pay tribute to those who dies in WWII, and DO celebrate their part in that conflict, which WAS just and righteous. It's terrible that all those souls - including more than a few of my own relatives, as it will be for a lot of folk - were lost, but died for a purpose, an ideal, which was realised and did come about when the Axis powers were defeated. THAT is worth remembering, every time you raise your voice in protest or grumble about modern society/politicians/add whinge point here... you CAN protest and you CAN grumble, but it's because all those men and women died for us to do so.

 

It takes a special kind of twisted soul, IMO, to find fault or a reason to deny any of that, and to dishonour those who died and continue to die so that others might live.

[Gibber]

I see it as a way of paying tribute to those who have lost their lives, on our behalf as part of our armed forces, in whatever conflict, regardless of your beliefs on wars, etc. it's not about the conflict they died in, its about the fact that they DID die. The loss of those lives, that's something I can honestly say I consider on a regular basis.

 

I don't understand how to divorce the fact they died from the why. We should comemorate every death if we remove the why. This means we end up having a minutes silence for Fred West if we ignore the circumstances of his death.

 

I wouldn't deny anyone's right to a ceremony of rememberence of those who died, I just want to know what it's remembering when the leaders of the country are institutionalising the ceremony with their involvement.

[scoots]

They died in service to their country, having taken an oath to so serve abd defend.

 

Fred bloody West hung himself after being caught for the abduction, sexual molestation/abuse and murder of several young girls, rather than face a lifetime of being looked after, rent-free, for the rest of his life.

 

If you can't spot the difference, I can't do it for you.

 

As to the politicos getting involved, I'd damn well hope they would, as it's then who send these servicemen & women to these far-flung countries, to serve and - in the cases we are seeking to honour & remember - die there. In service. Not abducting, raping & murdering.

 

That defines the difference for me.

[Gibber]

So its to honour those who have taken an oath to do whatever military actions they are told to by their goverment even including dying.

 

This can be very admirable as you have pointed out in the case of WWII (in broad terms). It can also be completely immoral and that depends entirely on the why they are fighting not the fact that they are fighting.

[scoots]

I have no answer to the suggestion that the government, through military leaders, will order British soldiers to die.

 

If you are a frontline soldier, engaging in actions against a hostile enemy force, there is a possibility of your dying. This is understood by soldiers, or so I would think.

 

Your further suggestion that the government would order them to commit immoral/illegal acts is equally unanswerable by me, ax I suspect you have already made up your mind - subjectively - and have no intention of changing it, regardless of what I or anyone else says.

 

I've stated MY reasons for remembering, and I do not wait once a year to do so.

[Scorrie]

True, I am only assuming that remembering dead Nazis isn't the point of rememberence Sunday or the symbology of the poppy. And doing so would probably be an insult to the memory (and to those still living) of those specifically being recognised through rememberence.

 

Perhaps I'm wrong.

 

Gibber, it's worth remembering that the poppy came into existence at the end of the Great War - 15 years before the rise of German National Socialism. No-one had heard of a 'Nazi' then, so the whole of the German forces (1914-18) are nicely exempted from being on the receiving end of your ire, but I digress.

 

I said my own view of the poppy these days is one of rememberence for those killed in conflict - not to support military murderers, rapists and political radicals. And I am definitely not alone. Singling out 'Nazis' as somehow being representative of all those who have opposed Britain is over simplistic to say the least. No-one is advocating a celebration of armed aggression by former enemies.

 

There is a strong tradition in the British military of respecting former opponents who have fought well and with honour - and then moving on - a view that is echoed by myself, the British Legion and more than a few others.

 

And reconciliation should be a subject banged into every kids head at school. That way there will be less people foaming at the mouth on internet forums, in pubs and on the street, IMO.

 

Here's one quick example:

 

http://www.leektowncouncil.co.uk/twinning/remembrance-2009

 

 

 

On a more personal note, about five years ago when in Egypt I ended up talking to a foreign gentleman in a bar whilst watching rugby. A decent bloke. I was introduced to him by a bunch of ex-military Aussies who were with him.

It turned out after a short discussion that he was a fighter pilot engaged directly against me and my immediate colleagues in a little shenanigans many years ago.

 

What would you have done, my friend? Ignored him? Raged against the aggressive politics of his nation? Punched him?

 

We shook hands and he proposed a toast to those who did not return. I raised my glass with him. He had a job to do and so did I. Nothing personal.

 

You either 'get it' - or you don't.

[Spinner72]

^^ A wonderful quote. I really worry about anyone who doesn't "get it".

 

I find the whole "debate" about remembrance day/sunday quite strange. It really is a very simple thing. Some people (very few left now) remember fallen friends, or members of their family.

 

Others may happen to choose that time to remember others, for personal reasons which are nobody's business but their own.

 

Nothing more, nothing less.

[scoots]

Don't go calling it the "Great War", whatever you do! Someone might seize upon the adjective and misinterpret it as meaning you think it was a super smashing lovely conflict, as opposed to the largest ever war of its kind, at that time.

 

All these years, I've been thinking the "Great Wall of China" refers to its size and scale... turns out it's down to the smashing brickwork and pointing!!