Gollywogs - is this guy for real?.

[shetlandpeat]

Anything with BNP on it should be withdrawn from sale. You are really twisting the argument.

 

Certainly do not understand this logic though---

 

 

.  But if anything, that proves how some people never held a racial association with the doll in the first place!

 

 

What it shows about your "experience" is that it is anecdotal and therefore cannot be trusted.

 

If folk admit there is a link, it sort of demolishes their lectern.

Edited September 22, 2013 by shetlandpeat

[Gibber]

What it shows about your "experience" is that it is anecdotal and therefore cannot be trusted.

 

SP, I salute you.  Kicking myself for missing that one.

[unlinkedstudent]

 

But if anything, that proves how some people never held a racial association with the doll in the first place!

 

You seem to be proving you still don't think there are/were racial associations with golliwogs.

 

 

Ahem, scroll back to the comment I made about the Wikipedia article.  Just as I said I didn't follow the American culture, I don't follow BNP culture either.  My flag belongs to the country I'm from and that's what I associate it to, NOT to the BNP.  Likewise, the association and relationship I have with the golliwog goes back to my childhood and NOT with the BNP or those in the USA.

[unlinkedstudent]

Anything with BNP on it should be withdrawn from sale. You are really twisting the argument.

 

Certainly do not understand this logic though---

 

 

.  But if anything, that proves how some people never held a racial association with the doll in the first place!

 

 

What it shows about your "experience" is that it is anecdotal and therefore cannot be trusted.

 

If folk admit there is a link, it sort of demolishes their lectern.

I spoke about my experience.  Given that it came from my lips / via my keyboard, I fail to see how it can be anecdotal to me as what I say cannot be hearsay to me.

[shetlandpeat]

So, what the blogger wrote is within your realms of acceptability. Who ever you are! We have to keep in mind there are only two real people involved, a poet and an elderly woman who imports dolls that have had links to racism.

 

Forgot about the "Commonwealth"? The flag also belonged to many of the mother countries out posts, I have seen colonialism first hand.

Edited September 22, 2013 by shetlandpeat

[unlinkedstudent]

So, what the blogger wrote is within your realms of acceptability. Who ever you are! We have to keep in mind there are only two real people involved, a poet and an elderly woman who imports dolls that have had links to racism.

 

NO.  It isn't acceptable to me to be two-faced and to insist that just because something is offensive to him that the same object should immediately be offensive to every other person in the world.

[Gibber]

Ahem, scroll back to the comment I made about the Wikipedia article.  Just as I said I didn't follow the American culture, I don't follow BNP culture either.  My flag belongs to the country I'm from and that's what I associate it to, NOT to the BNP.  Likewise, the association and relationship I have with the golliwog goes back to my childhood and NOT with the BNP or those in the USA.

 

 

Me, me, me, me, me.  What about me!?

 

I spoke about my experience.  Given that it came from my lips / via my keyboard, I fail to see how it can be anecdotal to me as what I say cannot be hearsay to me.

 

 

Er...But it's anecdotal to the rest of us though.

 

If you're now a solipsist, then does that mean I'm not real?  Don't answer that, I've got stuff I have to do tomorrow which requires both a mind that exists and corporeal body extended in space, (driving daughter to a birthday party, gotta get a loaf too, and a pint of milk......) 

[Ghostrider]

It does not logically follow that this is the only conclusion.  They may not be aware of the dolls, they may have officially complained in confidence and nothing was done, they may have voiced their concerns informally to friends and left it at that, perhaps they didn't want to 'make a fuss' for whatever reason they choose or they may have thought the idea of complaining was a bad one.....

 

Let me try one last time of repeating myself by dumbing it down a bit.....

 

Say one day you visit Shetlink and note that no new posts have been made for the previous 24 hours, and you wonder why. Now, obviously the site *may* have just come back up after being down for 24 hours, or, anything that had been posted in that period *may* all have been deleted by Mods as unsuitable for the site, or, no doubt several other possible explanations *may* have occured to achieve such a state of affair, but unless you have evidence to lead you to believe any one or more of those possibilities may be true, you can only reach one conclusion based on what you do know. That nobody, for whatever reason has posted anything within that 24 hour period.

 

The same applies with my claim of there only being one logical conclusion, that there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest prior to Mr Sissay's outburst either resident or visiting coloured people felt strongly enough about the Golliwogs being on sale to express an opinion or make a statement publically.

 

Any or all of your given examples *may*, or *may not* have merit, the point is, there is no evidence to support the validity of any one of them, leaving the only conclusion in the circumstances, where there is no evidence to point elsewhere, that both residents and previous visitors were at most indifferent to the situation.

 

If folk, for whatever reason, choose not to stand up and express their opinions and feelings and be counted, no one can know them as no one is a mind reader. Without knowing whatever opinions and feelings anyone may have, there is only one logical place to go - that either they have no opinion or feelings on whatever the subject is, or they have decided for whatever reason(s) that keeping quiet and accepting the status quo is preferable to taking a stand and trying to change things. That's their choice to make, not anyone else's to make on their behalf.

 

Or, are you trying to suggest that we really have descended to a mire of PC'ness that requires everybody to look long and hard and critically at every thing they say, do or own to ensure that in no way size, shape of form it could maybe possibly upset or offend even just one person the tiniest smidgin before proceeding.

 

The rest, where you put you own meaning to suit your argument on my quote, I'll get back to later.

Edited September 22, 2013 by Ghostrider

[Gibber]

Not true, I gave examples that account for being offended and choosing not to announce it. 

 

To say

 

"....if those [coloured people] who are in any way of character like this one [Lemn Sissay], we can well do without both them and their extremist opinions."

 

and then to say that not voicing the offence caused by gollywogs is a sign only of not being offended is dumbed down enough already thanks.

[shetlandpeat]

 

So, what the blogger wrote is within your realms of acceptability. Who ever you are! We have to keep in mind there are only two real people involved, a poet and an elderly woman who imports dolls that have had links to racism.

 

NO.  It isn't acceptable to me to be two-faced and to insist that just because something is offensive to him that the same object should immediately be offensive to every other person in the world.

 

These dolls are known to have racial links, that is already a fact, part of their name has been used to single out a race. Your only defence on this matter is that perhaps there were other ways this could have been identified with the shop owner (who I guess would have been aware of the links yet continued to import them, therefore making a choice).

 

The fear is, Shetland has a problem with race relations, alas, that is now public and very world wide. I remember comments being made about an Asian family who lived in Shetland many years ago.

 

Fixing the issue would have been far more productive than defending a persons right to sell imported goods for sale along the high street known to have issues attached to them.

 

If you want to bang the Shetland drum, why are these imports on sale and not Shetland crafts persons creating their own?

[shetlandpeat]

Not true, I gave examples that account for being offended and choosing not to announce it. 

 

To say

 

"....if those [coloured people] who are in any way of character like this one [Lemn Sissay], we can well do without both them and their extremist opinions."

 

and then to say that not voicing the offence caused by gollywogs is a sign only of not being offended is dumbed down enough already thanks.

Plain as day that, GR you do say we can do without [coloured people] who have a particular attitude, alas, I feel however this is more a black issue rather than non-white.

[unlinkedstudent]

Oooh, I've discovered the block button!

[as]

just to point out that my account was not anecdotal.

 

 

also, the Gollywogs are made in England, "imported" to Shetland - yes. but manufactured in England.

 

The shopkeeper will have been fully aware of the mayhem those blasted things caused when the petition started, yet she still insists on selling them. So yes, she has made that conscious decision and therefore should not be surprised if she gets criticised for it. Hardly a reason to shut the shop though.

 

A lot here has been mentioned about the "innocent childhood memories of collecting Gollywogs/ badges etc". But for non british people (like me for example) who have not been "brought up" with Gollywogs and all this "innocence" that is apparently so fondly remembered, it is a slightly different story. I do not share that part of british culture, instead I see Gollywogs for what they really are and find it hard to understand that the obvious historical rascist origins are so easily ignored and explained away. Pretending "It's just a doll" is closing our eyes to history.

[unlinkedstudent]

 

Ahem, scroll back to the comment I made about the Wikipedia article.  Just as I said I didn't follow the American culture, I don't follow BNP culture either.  My flag belongs to the country I'm from and that's what I associate it to, NOT to the BNP.  Likewise, the association and relationship I have with the golliwog goes back to my childhood and NOT with the BNP or those in the USA.

 

 

Me, me, me, me, me.  What about me!?

 

 

Spot on.  I can only speak for me.  Can I speak for all white English women and say what they might find offensive?  Absolutely not.

[Gibber]

just to point out that my account was not anecdotal.

 

Is there corroboration anywhere?  It might put to bed some of the views being expressed here.