Gollywogs - is this guy for real?.

[bruckbox]

Just read this topic from end to end, Everything that has been said could have been said on one page of foolscap. This has now gone from debating to trying to outdo each other, Please look back and see how many times the same points have been put forward by many of the same people. A Golliwog is just a bloody toy from a bygone age, Live we it..

[JohanofNess]

Oh SP, for goodness sake get a life and stop bullying people(me).

 

 

He's picking on you because you're expressing an opinion which makes the self righteous one a little bit uneasy, basically you need to start apologising for what previous generations have done.

 

I put him on the new fangled ignore list, couldn't be bothered reading any more of the sanctimonious pish he'd spout.

[shetlandpeat]

 

I put him on the new fangled ignore list, couldn't be bothered reading any more of the sanctimonious pish he'd spout.

 

Works both ways I guess, sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting la la la.

 

This argument works both ways, though, a visitor to Shetland has commented on the sale of goods likely to offend, they are wrong. Yet someone can complain about that persons feelings and then belittle them.

 

The "ignore" list could prove to stiffle debate and comment, and of course, leave one out of the loop. It could add to the self belief that the ignorer is somewhat above the ignored and perpetuate a feeling of greater than thou. I will not be "ignoring" folk for fear of being IGNORant. Nor do I think I am greater than the next person, it is a shame in cases that closed minds do not have closed mouths.

 

As though, for fear of identification, mouths will remain shut and forum such as these can be utilised to reveal the inner self.

[Colin]

I certainly am not cherry picking a version I think is correct. There is a wealth of historical source material to draw from. Ironically, the source you provide does back up the minstrel lineage"A product of the blackface tradition, the Golliwogg had jet black skin; bright, red lips; and wild, woolly hair. He wore red trousers, a shirt with a stiff collar, red bow-tie, and a blue jacket with tails — all traditional minstrel attire."

 

Not cherry picking.  Just picking the bits of the article that seem to fit your mindset then....

Try approacing the subject with an open mind and remember, the article is calling for citations.

 

 

 

I have no problem at all with coloured dolls - but a golliwog is a specific and iconic design of racist lineage.

 

So, a coloured doll, which looks human, and a Golliwog, which doesn't, differ in so much as the doll is 'a good thing' but the Golliwog is 'iconic'. I think you had better illustrate what you think is 'iconic' about Gollywogs.

 

 

I used to use the words "Pakie" and "NigNog" as a child. /snip/  Afterall, there would be no problem in my head unless someone put it there.

 

If you hadn't been taught those words, you would not have used them.

 

 

And do we really need to be as pedantic as providing "supporting facts" to prove that some comedians were racist??

 

I would have thought that the need of some kind of proof to back up accusations was not pedantic at all unless, that is, you approve of the mechanics of a 'Kangaroo Court'.

 

 

And yes, what was acceptable "then" might not be acceptable "now".... such as golliwogs.

 

Only to you (and others no doubt) but some of us still see it as a rag doll and would not associate it's image with racism.

[Davie P]

 
Life's too short to get involved with such pedantry in full, but I'll respond to a few points.
 
I have approached the subject with an open mind. It's as simple as the weight of evidence pointing to golliwogs coming from a racist lineage.
 
'icon' - (goole definition) "A person or thing regarded as a representative symbol of something" In this case, I believe a golliwog is a representative symbol of historic racism.
 
I really do think you're clutching at straws if you expect me to have to provide evidence that some comedians were racist. Forgive me Colin, but I have better things to do with my Saturday. Are you really saying that there are not, and have never been, racist comedians? 
 
I'm not particularly offended by golliwogs, and by all means Colin buy your kids golliwogs, collect jam jar wrappers, shout down people who are offended - knock yourself out. I'm not that bothered. Is still doesn't change my opinion.

[Mattie]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b3/The_Three_Golliwogs.jpg

Just blame Enid Blyton!

[Ghostrider]

http://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2013/01/21/custody-for-man-accused-of-two-assaults

 

It seems, as time goes on, or folk report more, there is a steadily increasing level of hate and intollerance of beliefs, stature and creed.

 

Peat, that link is nine months old, if that's the best you can do for "recently", the only thing it proves is that any local racism is rare and mostly low level.

 

It seems to me, that as time goes on, more and more people are getting sick to the back teeth of the PC brigade pleepsin on about alleged "problems" without providing meaningful evidence of the existence of them, and its causing the same folk to go out of their way to say and do things to wind up the PC's and the "victims" of the "problems" the PC's allege, by way of a backlash.

[ArabiaTerra]

Does anyone really think it's white peoples place to tell a black person what is and isn't racist?

Edited September 12, 2013 by ArabiaTerra

[JustMe]

Does anyone really think it's white peoples place to tell a black person what is and isn't racist?

Well yes I guess I think white people can say what they think is racist just as much as black, Asian and every other person can say what they think is racist.  And remember there is plenty of white on white racism including perhaps even here in Shetland.  Meanwhile if anyone really thinks that a toy that certainly was not meant to be racist in its origins is serious racisim then maybe they ought to ask a few sufferers what real racism is like.

 

Which is not to say that lesser acts of racism should be overlooked completely.  Just that they should be viewed in proportion.  Anyway what about all the other "isms" we see on TV  and in real life day to day?.

[Ghostrider]

Does anyone really think it's white peoples place to tell a black person what is and isn't racist?

 

Its nobody's place to tell anyone of any other race than their own what is or isn't racist to them, but by the same token some sort of controlling mechanism has to be in place to prevent anyone, whatever their race, from playing the race card on frivolous or duplicitous grounds. While I have the fullest sympathy for the victims of genuine racism, I have none for those who use the "victim" mentailty and go around looking for excuses to talk up to high heaven and manufacture "racist" "complaints" without a tangible verifiable reason to do so. There are too many folk who adopt the "I say its racist, so it must be so" attitude for personal reasons only, and then you get the whole PC and sensationalist rags mob running after them trying to appease them. Its crying wolf, and does nothing to counteract genuine racist situation, and in fact arguably is counterproductive as folk being forced to modify their behaviour/lifestyle for to all appearances spurious and the self-serving reasons of another, are more likely to rile against the whole thing and say "F**k 'em".

 

Folk in general will be compliant with requests that are backed by proof and genuine reason, not so much when they see no purpose for it other than somebody looking for reasons to create a fuss for their own personal glory, and that's where an ever increasing proportion of "racist" rhetoric seems to reside these days.

[ArabiaTerra]

 

Does anyone really think it's white peoples place to tell a black person what is and isn't racist?

Well yes I guess I think white people can say what they think is racist just as much as black, Asian and every other person can say what they think is racist.  And remember there is plenty of white on white racism including perhaps even here in Shetland.  Meanwhile if anyone really thinks that a toy that certainly was not meant to be racist in its origins is serious racisim then maybe they ought to ask a few sufferers what real racism is like.

 

Which is not to say that lesser acts of racism should be overlooked completely.  Just that they should be viewed in proportion.  Anyway what about all the other "isms" we see on TV  and in real life day to day?.

 

 

 

 

Does anyone really think it's white peoples place to tell a black person what is and isn't racist?

 

Its nobody's place to tell anyone of any other race than their own what is or isn't racist to them, but by the same token some sort of controlling mechanism has to be in place to prevent anyone, whatever their race, from playing the race card on frivolous or duplicitous grounds. While I have the fullest sympathy for the victims of genuine racism, I have none for those who use the "victim" mentailty and go around looking for excuses to talk up to high heaven and manufacture "racist" "complaints" without a tangible verifiable reason to do so. There are too many folk who adopt the "I say its racist, so it must be so" attitude for personal reasons only, and then you get the whole PC and sensationalist rags mob running after them trying to appease them. Its crying wolf, and does nothing to counteract genuine racist situation, and in fact arguably is counterproductive as folk being forced to modify their behaviour/lifestyle for to all appearances spurious and the self-serving reasons of another, are more likely to rile against the whole thing and say "F**k 'em".

 

Folk in general will be compliant with requests that are backed by proof and genuine reason, not so much when they see no purpose for it other than somebody looking for reasons to create a fuss for their own personal glory, and that's where an ever increasing proportion of "racist" rhetoric seems to reside these days.

 

 

And how do you measure this racism? Where is the guidebook, the International Standard? What constitutes "real racism" as opposed to "frivolous or duplicitous" racism. Who decides?

 

 

Its nobody's place to tell anyone of any other race than their own what is or isn't racist to them...

 

 

And that's the only standard that matters. The only standard that can matter. Racism will always be a subjective matter, never black or white (Groan), but when you have a clearly documented history of vicious, murderous, racism stretching back for centuries, the perpetrators of that racism don't get to tell the victims what is and isn't racist, and they should shut up and listen very carefully when the victims point out that something is racist.

[RugyDavy]

So, now the issue is in the paper!

 

(** mod edit - link added - http://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2013/09/13/shop-owner-considers-closing-after-criticism-for-selling-golliwog-dolls **)

 

I've bought two of these dolls (gollies) as my wife thinks they are cute little dolls. We don't see them as a symbol of racism and I don't consider buying them an active racist comment against any ethnic race.

 

How many folks on this thread have a legitimate reason to feel they have been personally affected and racially abused by the sale of these dolls and how many are just pontificting as self-styled forum and moral PC police officers.

 

Being racist is not demonstrated by buying a doll or collecting marmalade badges.

Real racism, the racism that targets people who are "different", is a state of shallow mindedness of the person/group who is subjecting their views and abuse onto others who they perceive as being different in whatever way. It comes in many forms and degrees of offense. 

 

 

I'm a 40 something year old white caucasion with a mixture of gaelic and celtic roots and I can tell you that based on some of the definitions of racism posted here I have been actively racially abused most of my life. (I'm emotionally crippled....{sarcasm}  )

I can also say that on the same basis I have equally demonstatrated racist comments and views towards other white caucasians. (hair shirt and ashes for me from now until the end of eternity; {sarcasm again}) 

I'm pretty sure if we look deep enough we are all guilty of it. I could provide examples, but that would only lead to more off-topic rants and maybe even some broken windows......{even more sarcasm, when will it end. I hope the sarcasm police don't target this post}

 

We need some perspective on this particular situation; the sale of black cloth dolls dressed in comical colourful outfits. Not one these dolls makes me think "ha ha ha, its a black dude dressed as a chef! Lets buy it as a demostration of how we hate people who originated from a country other than ours and who happen to have brown skin".

 

Its a doll!!!!!!! {swear words self-edited to save the moderators the trouble}

[hazel64]

I think his poetry must be that crap, he feels he need to write on his blog about a very good and kind person in a negative manner.

 

It's just disgusting and just shows how devious he is that he wrights about I but was very plesent to her in person.

 

Would assume he's the one with the big chip on his shoulder.

[Kavi Ugl]

I'm deeply saddened to see this in The Shetland Times and to see a born and bred Shetland lady being tricked and abused by some waife of a visiting, self professed "poet". 

 

I think it says a lot about this individual that he would come to Shetland as a visitor and think he has the right to behave in this way.

 

If this is the ilk that Shetland Arts is promoting and bringing to Shetland then I despise them and Mareel even more than I did.

 

A very sad day for Shetland and the owner of the Magpie's Nest......

Edited September 13, 2013 by Kavi Ugl

[Colin]

I wouldn't blame Shetland Arts.  Where there is no sense, there is no feeling... <G> but, just typical of the local rag to try and make something of it.  Glad I don't buy it....

Personally, I think it's a non-story but, if you are going to push me, I would suggest that the real racists(?)  are the people who are so aware of the percieved differences(?) that they have to make an issue of it to make themselves feel better.

Colour is only skin deep....