Blueprint for Education Update - Closures Again - Aith

[crofter]

Does anybody have the actual figures for the admin costs for education, how many folk are there in the HQ providing "support"

 

 

You can work out the administration costs using the figures from blueprint consultation documents -

 

1550 secondary pupils @ 10,000 pounds each = 15.50 million

2000 primary pupils @ 6718 pounds each = 13.44 million

 

Total = 28.94 million from an education budget of 40 million, so roughly 11 million for admin costs.

 

No. You have to remember the Eduacation and Families budget covers things like the Library service, the whole of Sport & Leiseure (playparks, pitches, sporting events), pre-school settings, etc - so your logic is a bit naive.

 

Maybe, but how much are a few playparks going to need for running costs? I see my figures are out of date, anyway - the Shetland Times reports today that the Education budget is 46 million. I wonder how many millions the blueprint exercise has cost us already?

[paulb]

the last one about 500k with all the other reviews over the last few years about a million.

[Spinner72]

I completely agree that education is always going to be more expensive in island groups than on the scottish mainland. And it is more expensive in Shetland than Orkney for a number of reasons but mainly because geographically it's easier for them to have fewer schools.

 

I also wonder how much money we are spending on Additional Support Needs in schools, including the Bell's Brae special needs unit. Before anyone jumps on me I am not saying that the money should not be spent on these bairns I think the absolute opposite. I am just pointing out that perhaps this is an area where a good chunk of money is being spent.

 

Also from the Scottish Government website are some Additional Supports statistics.

 

Orkney have 257 pupils requiring additional support in school. These are broken down into different catagories - here are 3 - learning disability, 31

Dyslexia, 29

Autism, 54.

 

Shetland have 803 pupils requiring additional support. Learning disability, 73

Dyslexia, 127

Autism, 58.

 

What was interesting for me was the much larger number in Learning Disabilty and Dyslexia for Shetland. To me this means that Shetland is much better at identifying these problems and giving additional support. This also of course means spending more money.

 

It was also interesting that the 'Autism' figure was almost the same.

 

Very well researched, and concurs nicely with a something I came on to post about. Lots of people, including some Councillors tout Orkney as an example and ask "why can't we be the same"

 

I did a bit of research myself (as you can see on the general savings thread) and having done some more I am firmly of the view that Shetland may actually be getting more service per staff member than Orkney, by quite a margin in some places.

 

Now, as I said on that thread, that doesn't mean we can still afford this level, but it does make the situation more understandable.

 

The fact is Orkney has never had the additional pot of money Shetland has had to develop its schools (among other services). So even if it wanted to, it probably couldn't cope with any more special needs children, or additional schools.

 

I actually have formed the opinion that Shetland should be entitled to a lot more money from central government for education. It is clear that for many years instead of asking for more money to cover what many will agree is necessary spending on education, Shetland had its own pot of money to draw from.

 

In short - central govt have had a bloody bargain in education in Shetland, so now its time to pay up.

[shetlander]

It seems to me that there is a lot of misinformation (deliberate or otherwise) flying about as to why the council is in the mess that it is and how things are costed and budgeted - and I don't think any of us can profess to be experts. Mareel having been built with money that could have been spent keeping schools open or ditching the islands allowance to save money are two of the frequently cited examples that spring to mind though. I have no idea though as to whether the millions wasted on the AHS and the Bressa Brig actually has any bearing on the cuts that they are now contemplating.

 

A good starting point IMO would be for the council to set out very clearly and in laymans terms via a notice in the paper or whatever what budgets need to be cut and why - the differences between capital and revenue expenditure, what funding is ring fenced for particular things, the distinction between council and trust provided services, how Mareel and VE are financed etc. Employee numbers (broken down between office based staff in Lerwick and those employed on ferries, in schools and care centres etc) and how that compares with Orkney, the Western Isles and elsewhere would be useful too. Folk might choose to ignore it to suit their own agendas but at least that way, it can be made absolutely clear what areas have to or should be cut and what areas simply can't.

 

As far as school closures are concerned, taking the findings on travel times and all projected costs/savings to school staff and parent councils (multiple times if necessary) before public consultation starts could iron out any areas of disagreement early on. That way, the debate can centre around the merits of keeping schools open as opposed to whether the facts are incorrect or not.

 

That all said I suspect the answer (if not the final amount in pounds and pence) will still be the same - that frontline services have to be cut for savings to be made.

[Where Eagles Dare]

Its going to be worrying time for everyone. No easy answers. Feel sorry for da people in Aith. I kinda get the impression though that a group of people will be forgotten in all of da forthcoming verbal slinging matches, as they were with the Scalloway closure. The Lerwick bairns who go to the AHS. It is their school just as Aith is to Aith bairns and Baltasound is to Baltasound bairns. How would possible closures affect them with having even bigger class sizes and having to put up with an influx fae da country?

[bug]

but i bet your not. its how they like to hide things.

 

for example someone claimed they saved over a million from shutting scalloway as against there estimated 750k. how the teachers are there the building is still there the kids are being taught and they have to add on the transport costs. were have these mythical savings come from.

 

PB - I have just read your post. It clearly demonstrates the past failures in education. (or demonstrates clearly for the pedants) ?

[paulb]

Why thank you bug. I never knew that my English was poor. Many thanks for informing me. Shame they never taught you manners or social skills.

 

Were my schooling did not fail was in maths Aiths children cost 10k a year andersons cost 7-8k yet they are going to save £6,900per pupil. Even in my poorly educated and befuddled mind it tells me this is bull.

 

Even being generous and saying that they could save 3k per year per child that still is short another £390,000. take the cost of transporting them to Lerwick at say £600 per child and the boarding costs of those from Sandness and their savings are looking more in the region of £250,000.

 

Now having 2 daughters that have been through the Andersons year 5 and 6th i can safely say that the education there is not better than what they are getting at aith. My children have been to both brae and aith and the anderson and they rate them in that order for the quailty of the education they got there.

[humptygrumpty]

Well with the recent screw ups with this proposal , ie , touting this nutty idea without having ALL the relevent information to hand is just a perfect example of the relative stupidity that reigns supreme in the sic ! And the big wigs in the sic say they have to pay the big salaries to attract the "right" people............what a bl**dy laugh !!! Well we all know what an "expert" is.....an ex = a has been , and a spurt is a drip under pressure.

 

Elsewhere on here you will find the massive balls up with how much would be saved when they closed another school , they reckoned 200,000 and to end up with it was as little as £10.000 , now with that kind of error , who is going to trust what stoness they come up with next ?

[Guest CyprusPluto]

we all know what an "expert" is.....an ex = a has been , and a spurt is a drip under pressure.

 

[Where Eagles Dare]

An interesting comment by Paul B with regards to da 'quality of education'. A tricky one to define. Isn't this a bit like saying that you get a better swim at Aith and Sandwick than you do in da toon? Why, because both pools are less busy and you more than often have the whole place to yourself. Define quality. If you're speaking aboot smaller class sizes, (16 as opposed to probably almost 30 in the toon) more invevitable teacher attention per pupil than da AHS, and in turn a better chance of doing well in exams, then I would guess that Paul B has got a point..... Quality can be defined on many levels, and I gather that inspectors thought that AHS was doing ok last year, not least after having tae take in a lot of Scalloway bairns.

 

Coming back to my earlier point, where does that annually leave the poor toon bairns who annually have to face an influx of their cousins fae da country?? It was a long time ago that I was at da AHS, but the instant 'putting down' o that school when this cuts issue surfaces amuses me.

[Muppet]

It's a long time since I was at the Anderson too, but back then there were pupils from fair Isle to Unst there. Both Hostels were full and the overflow stayed in digs in the town. The school roll was somewhere about 1100 to 1200. There was no Sandwick or Brae High schools, the new blocks hadn't been built and there never seemed to be a problem with overcrowding.

 

How is that now when the school roll has almost halved and the building size doubled that overcrowding seems to be an issue?

 

The Anderson then was always held up to be among the best schools in Scotland as it is now.

[trowie246]

For anyone who has the time and the stomach to trawl through the info that councillors have requested from children's services before a decision is taken at Friday's meeting re school closures.

 

 

http://www.shetland.gov.uk/coins/submissiondocuments.asp?submissionid=13620

[Shoogler]

This is a pretty detailed breakdown of the current costs of running each school and the way in which ALL costs are allocated,including central and 'overhead' charges.

I am stunned at just how much we are paying for certain schools and nurseries - no wonder we are in the mess we are in as we have allowed this to go unchecked for far too long and we simply can't afford to let it continue.

 

It seems to me that if SIC don't back a radical change and take action to deliver education in a different and cheaper way, then we will have an even bigger disaster to sort out in a few more years.

 

The pain of having to accept a different model of schooling is going to have to be accepted throughout Shetland

[MJ]

Desperately looking for additional transport and hosteling costs if Aith is closed. any ideas where it is? was interested to see if they are taking in to account the under provision of current school transport. Should they close the school here they really can't expect 11year olds to be driving themselves to school. Also intrigued to find out how many will be back to having to catch 3 different buses to and from school, praying that if the bus they're on is running late the next one will wait for them.

[Shoogler]

There is a costing for extra transport and also an estimate of hostelling for a specific number of bairns in the Aith catchment area.

There is also an acknowledgement that existing transport routes will mean some bairns can't get to school in under the 'maximum' time of 65 minutes and that alternative means will be explored.

 

I think you can safely say that these bairns will be practically taxied to school in Lerwick and back and that will still be a huge saving on the current cost model - either that or they will be deemed to be hostel kids.