Israel vs. Middle Eastern Arab states

[KOYAANISQATSI]

http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/2813/2480635462cec1752406lg2.jpg

 

Yes there are lots of pretty pictures out there; yours seem to show an ss guy standing among corpses that have died of disease. Besides if it was a group killing would they not have got them to take of their uniforms to give to the next batch.

 

and yes we are watching you

 

Don't make me laugh; you couldn't watch your toes with two full length mirrors.

[KOYAANISQATSI]

Well done Gibber you seem to have reached level 2, already.

 

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident

[Gibber]

 

We need not waste time or effort answering the deniers' contentions. It would be never-ending to respond to arguments posed by those who freely falsify findings, quote out of context and simply dismiss reams of testimony. Unlike true scholars, they have little, if any, respect for data or evidence. Their commitment is to an ideology and their 'findings' are shaped to support it.

 

 

Yep This says it all.

 

KOYTWATSI, in some sad way the internet was made for people like you.

[Gibber]

This again?

 

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

 

Aren't you violently opposed to the mainstream version of historical fact, namely that the Holocaust happened? I understand that your lack of wit means you had to bypass the first stage. Hopefully your dislike of Jews won't stop you reaching the third stage and taking the Holocaust to be a self evident truth.

[Fjool]

Hmm... (checks topic) ... looks like things have drifted enormously.

 

On topic please. And I'd be very grateful for less quoting, swearing and hot-linking of images! Much obliged.

 

etc

[Gibber]

Holocaust denial denial is the belief that Holocaust denial never occurred or at least not to the degree that many believe it to. Holocaust denial deniers believe that the extent of the atrocities committed during and leading up to World War II against minority groups in Europe by the Third Reich is much more far-reaching than most Holocaust deniers recognize. Furthermore, Holocaust denial deniers suggest that Holocaust denial or "Holohoax denial" is a crock of turd as are its supporters, who they also claim “don't exist".

 

Holocaust denial denial accepts the commonly accepted idea that the Jews and other minority groups were killed in Nazi concentration camps. Also prominent is the belief that the Nazis tried to cover up the true events and/or redirect blame for their crimes to the victims, creating sympathy for their cause. In addition, beliefs that the Germans had always planned to frame foreign propaganda for their crimes even from before the war is common, but not universal among Holocaust denial deniers. Some renounce the last claim and assert that it was simply a move made when the prospect fortuitously presented itself.

 

In summation, Holocaust denial deniers generally believe that the Holocaust was orchestrated by the Nazis for the purpose of restricting living space in Germany to only the rightful Aryan race. While the above is important, it only serves to solidify their claims. Their main claims are as follows:

 

1. "Holocaust denial" has never happened.

2. Individuals have never spoken out and suggested the Holocaust to be exaggerated or have never existing entirely.

3. David Irving and other proponents of Holocaust denial do not exist.

 

Evidence

Holocaust denial deniers argue that unlike Holocaust deniers (who they deny the existence of), there is an abundant amount of evidence to back up their claims. Indeed, many concentration camps have been found throughout Europe since the end of World War II. Conditions at these camps have been found to be completely inhospitable, providing evidence that their purpose was the methodical slaughter of all people held there. Often mass graves have also been excavated near the sites, demonstrating that what took place was a genocide.

Testimonies of Schutzstaffel officers being tried for crimes against humanity for their involvement in the Holocaust ranged from, "Oh, I'd say about six million Jews or so." to, "Yes, we did it." Almost all of them claimed that the accusations were completely true.

Holocaust denial deniers have also asserted that the lack of prominent articles regarding Holocaust denial is evidence enough that Holocaust denial doesn't exist and is probably a botched hoax of some sorts. The claim that David Irving and other figures who have openly spoken about Holocaust denial "don't exist" is also somehow justified. An informal 2003 report regarding Holocaust negationism from the Open University of Israel stated the following:

 

...Upon further inspection of 'David Irving's birth certificate', we came to find that in actuality ... it didn't exist. We are thoroughly convinced that no such individual exists, and therefore, has never spoken out against the Holocaust. Not existing can sometimes be a problem when it comes to stating your opinion. For example, if I say, 'Ron Shickelberger was the official commentator for the 1938 Nuremberg Rally' you'll say, 'Who?' Exactly.

 

Criticism

 

Holocaust denial denial has faced extremely heavy criticism throughout the years from both believers of the Holocaust and Holocaust deniers themselves. Many have claimed that David Irving, does in fact, exist, though no evidence has been brought forward to substantiate this claim.

It has been extremely difficult for supporters of Holocaust denial to provide evidence that they exist, as do their beliefs. And beyond that, it's difficult to prove that their claims are as widespread as many believe them to be as Holocaust denial deniers don't believe in their beliefs to begin with.

 

Holocaust deniers have stated that Holocaust denial deniers simply attempt to "ignore" Holocaust denial's ideas and those affiliated with them while subconsciously recognizing them. This however, was proven untrue by Dr. Greenstein of the Open University of Israel, who stated, "Who?" when asked about what he thought regarding Holocaust deniers.

 

Irving's Theory

 

David Irving, who has only made brief comments regarding Holocaust denial denial stated that some deny that the denial Holocaust denial deniers deny is actually legitimate denial, and that they are actually attempting reverse psychology through the denial of denying and absurdism. Certainly, the denial of denial is an effect tactic of denial which can solidify initial claims which the denial being denied rose out of, yet they can also harm these claims undeniably. Of course, to Holocaust denial deniers, Irving doesn't exist, so his statements have fallen on deaf ears.

[Fjool]

[Njugle]

Gibber, KOY, Now look what you've done^

 

I hope you're proud of yourselves.

 

Anyway, as Fjool has admirably tried the good cop route and erm, cried i'm going to have to try the bad cop route, thus:

 

This thread is or was supposed to be about the relationship Isreal has with it's middle eastern neighbours, as per the title. Discussions of tangential points relating to Judaism were interesting up to a point, but have now outlived their usefulness in this thread. I may split it, but whether or not i do, please also keep your discussions cordial and above a personally insulting level. Personal attacks, excessive quoting etc are forbidden under the rules, you know the score.

 

Thank you.

[Pooks]

Good point. Well spotted. Any more irrelevant nonsense in this thread shall be banished to another place. Maybe a sunny place? Maybe not. Either way. Keep the thread on topic or start a new one. You know the rules. Splitting and merging will occur should this thread deviate any further.

[paulb]

looks like isreals wall is working.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian+terror+since+2000/Victims+of+Palestinian+Violence+and+Terrorism+sinc.htm

if these deaths had been americans there would have been nothing left of the west bank. no country can allow there people to be murdered.

[ArabiaTerra]

Of course, the hypocrisy here is that the Israeli's make no mention on the numbers of Palestinians killed during the same period is not even mentioned.

...no country can allow there people to be murdered.

Surely this applies just as much to the Palestinians, except they don't have a huge, American-backed military juggernaut to protect their citizens.

[paulb]

true. but the fact is that they have no choice they are both going to have to learn to get on with each other. neither of them are popular with the other countries in the area.

there is another aspect to this conflict that seems to have been overlooked when the british mandate ended and the war between the arab states and the israelis broke out jordan captured the west bank area of palestine. the jordanians never returned this area to the rightfu people. would the west bank have ever become Palestinian. the same happened with the gaza strip. it was ment to be Palestinian but egypt invaded and captured it.

you could argue that without isreals existance would this fragmented state would never have come into being.

history may prove that its all down to the cold war tension that resulted in this long running conflict. it was a lot cheaper for the yanks and russians to wage a proxy war than to do it themselves.

with a lot of the world conflicts it just takes a bit of common sense for for them to be resolved. look at cyprus they are on the verge of reuniting a few years ago they were regularly shooting at each other.

lets hope that this will happen to isrealis and Palestinians.

[ArabiaTerra]

^^^ Lets hope so, but I won't be holding my breath. ^^^

[Gibber]

neither of them are popular with the other countries in the area.

 

Yes, this is an often overlooked point. Israel is obviously unpopular; but also in view of the failures of multi-national military action against Israel, '48, '67, '73; a militant Palestine, on the face of it, supported by Arab governments as a matter of course has caused a number of headaches for Jordan (Black September conflict), Lebanon (PLO mini state) and Egypt (Hamas operations at odds with Egypt's Western friendly politics). The Palestinian refugee issue is also shared by a number of countries and may be alleviated by a 2 state solution if Israel and the Palestinians can negotiate it.

 

^^^ Lets hope so, but I won't be holding my breath. ^^^

 

There is peace with Egypt and Jordan. Its possible with the rest of the neighbours.

 

Maybe.

[Guest Anonymous]

Welll thats them at it again and were no even gotten de festives seaon by we!!

100's of palaestinains dead and thousands injured ,m msassive scale of destruction to property ( dat will ruin da first fitting )

Oh and a single Israely has also been killed apparently .

 

who is right and who is wrong ? can anybody remember what it was about in the first place ? wonder if the under 25's in the region do ?

 

I might start a poll on this later , but the options im thinking of will most probably not be seen as popular .....

 

Been watching da aljazeera news lately and do find the differences between dem and da rest bbc , fox , cnnn etc quite interesting

whit thoughts???

 

(***Mod Edit - Merged with existing thread***)